Relative Rifle Action Strength

G

GJeffB

New member
posted here and elsewhere, as a courtesy ...

Evening All,
Thanks to those who have followed my retrogression from hotshot semiautos and AR to the new Ruger .45 Colt Blackhawk. The next itch is a replica 1800's big bore, tang sighted rifle. Specs to follow in a different post. Question of the day is about strength of various actions. Understanding, please that I'm not trying to replicate .458 WM, nor Ruger #1, etc.

Specifically: I *think* I understand the falling block is the "strongest" action. Followed closely by a falling block, then modern, or equaled by modern lever. How close am I to rating actions, regardless of loadings?

I'll follow up with specific makers/importers {Pedersoli,Taylor, Sharps, etc) inquiries next.

Thanks,
-jb, learning big mouths short and long
 
I *think* I understand the falling block is the "strongest" action. Followed closely by a falling block, then modern, or equaled by modern lever.
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Yes, as far as late 1800s black powder actions, the falling block (Winchester 1885 High Wall, Stevens 44-1/2, Farquharson, etc) are the strongest, tipping block (Ballard) comes close second (Iron framed, not brass framed), Remington Rolling Block, Sharps falling block, then the also-rans like the Stevens 44. Falling block actions typically are very compact and strong. Lever actions are pretty strong actions (again, iron or steel actions, not brass), but flex and stretch a lot since they are primarily toggle link and rear locking actions and the structure is actually quite thin for the most part. A lot of this is moot, since black powder cartridges don't generally produce much more than 20,000 psi. The actions that made the transition to smokeless are the strongest, of course, like the High Wall and the Remington Rolling block.

Bolt action rifles proved themselves to be stronger than most of the lever actions and many of the other actions beginning with the famous Mauser IG 1871. Once repeater bolt actions were developed, lever actions began their death spiral.
 
Nice reply Scorch, right to the point of the question. I appreciate that.

I can now begin my search, and narrow down to makes, models, etc.

-jb
 
Well, just let me know where to pick up all those "dead" leverguns as I guess my 'morgue' could use some added residents.
 
Got the same thing running on THR so I will only comment on Scorch's rankings.

I go with Frank DeHaas who did not consider the Ballard a particularly strong action. Its main advantage in black powder and rimfire is its tight head spacing.

Got to be careful with those old model numbers, the Stevens 44 is nowhere near as strong as the 44 1/2 which Paul Shuttleworth has further beefed up in his CPA rifles.

Kirk Bryan says his Shiloh Sharps will handle Ruger loads... but best to load down a bit and let the 30" barrel make up the velocity. Of course the Italian copies are proof tested for the CIP values of the cartridge, 28000 psi for .45-70.

C. Sharps makes an 1877 pattern Sharps (expensive) and the 1875 which is a stone bargain in American made single shots.

Lots of Martinis out there if you don't require a hammer. If you do, there is - or was - a new made Peabody.

If you like Remington but not the Rolling Block, there are a couple of places making the No 3 Remington Hepburn.

Really far out, I have seen a reproduction Frank Wesson, but better have your checkbook and a pen full of ink.
 
"...begin my search..." Decide on a budget first. Then what chambering. Keeping in mind that the .45-70 is the easiest to get ammo/brass for. Lotta that will be about what you plan on doing with it.
Pedersoli makes Sharps replicas and aren't as pricey as the same rifle from Sharps. About a grand or 2 vs $2500 plus.
"...their death spiral..." That's been said about lever actions for well over 100 years now. Yet the demand is still oddly strong. snicker.
 
"Death spiral"???
Isn't that being just a tad overdramatic?
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Not really. Lever actions are a niche rifle any more. In the late 1800s they were pretty much "the" rifle, at least here in the states. Beginning in the late 1890s the power move was towards bolt actions. Those Mauser brothers pretty much single-handedly changed the world. The military drove the demand, and they didn't like the fact that lever actions were so delicate. Hardly anybody but us old farts buying lever actions nowadays.
Yet the demand is still oddly strong.
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You really think so? Really? Several millions of Savage, Remington, Winchester, Tikka, Sako, Beretta, Blaser, SIG, Howa, Mauser, etc, bolt actions produced every year, and a couple ten thousand lever actions from Marlin, Henry, and Miroku and the Italian companies. Most lever actions are sold in North America, most of the rest of the world points and snickers. Or call them "cowboy guns" like my acquaintance from New Zealand did.
 
Lever actions are a niche rifle any more.
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I'd say its a pretty wide niche, more like a shelf, really...

Ok, no argument that traditional lever guns have limitations bolt guns don't, and never were intended for combat the way Mausers were. And no argument they aren't the most produced or best sellers anymore, but I still think that's still a long way from a death spiral.

Are revolvers in a death spiral? A decline, absolutely, but a long way from death, I think.

Its pessimistic I admit, but if certain political factions get their way and semi autos become legally restricted and/or banned, you might see lever guns becoming more popular than they are right now...

Of course if those people get their way, they won't stop with just semis, but I would expect a generation or so of "breathing space" before they can muster the political will to ban levers and revolvers.

I might be wrong, but if so, I doubt I'll personally be around to see it.

Lever guns in a downturn, decline, compared to other types, yes, death spiral? I don't see it, not yet, anyway
 
One of the most impressive things I've ever personally seen regarding action strength was shown to me by Kirk Bryan, the boss at the Shiloh Rifle Manufactory in Big Timber, MT. The rifle was one of their Quigley models (45/110 cal., a.k.a. 2.7/8" Sharps Straight), and was sent back to them after a failure in the chamber area of this particular rifle. As I remember, the action couldn't be opened, but was completely intact. The chamber area was split open in numerous places along the length of the chamber, with the brass case very visible residing therein. As I remember, the story goes that the case was FULL of smokeless pistol powder (can't remember the brand) when the rifle was fired. Of course, the fore stock was ruined too, but as I remember, the shooter wasn't harmed physically... mentally was probably another issue.

I can't imagine a better example of action strength than that one (IMO) for any firearms company. I do own two Shilohs, and they are fine, 100% American made guns. The actions on the Shiloh guns are investment castings, done right there in Big Timber by Shiloh.

If someone else here reading this has seen that rifle, and I haven't gotten something right on the info I've just shared about it, please add or subtract what's needed. It was probably 15 or so years ago when I viewed that fine, ruined rifle.
 
The rest of the world would love our current gun laws and freedoms (compared to theirs).
Let the daft buggers snicker......
Before they break out their Airsoft and pellet guns.
 
T. O'Heir said
"...begin my search..." Decide on a budget first. Then what chambering
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My fault. Settled on .45-70. Budget is far from open ended but I've thought carefully about
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020646027?pid=925261 and https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020646663?pid=847479
Given that, a $1500-$2k, trying to consider the $500 swing.

As Jim Watson noted, this is ongoing at several forums, and he has given some very good insights.

Thanks to all that have replied

-jb
 
Henry Repeating Arms seems to be capitalizing on the “Death Spiral” you speak of.

And Ruger seems willing to take a multi-million dollar bet on the event that you speak of as well.

With the advances in metallurgy and engineering, many lever rifles can compete very well on most levels of modern high pressure bottle necked cartridges and accuracy.

It’s well over 100 years after the bolt action hit mainstream, and it’s still a little early to blow taps on the lever action rifles.
 
Never like to leave a thread hanging ...
x-Posted as always

Resolved
Ya know, for those of you that partake in fine cigars, these forums are a lot like hanging out in a cigar bar with a great smoke and chatting. Decision made, with the input from all. I got lucky at the local (very small town) Walmart and scored RCBS 3 die set .45-70 and the appropriate shell holder, almost unheard of. Pushing my luck from there to a local farm sprinkler dealer that's also a sort of gun shop to update their status with MidWayUSA.com as instructed. Then home and online ordered https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1021143987?pid=662357

After a LOT of research I got close to a C Sharps. 10+/- months, $1795 minimally optioned, plus 8.25 Fed Excise Tax (generally included in all other firearms prices), plus state tax, plus shipping ... out of my reach, and time frame. Fine rifle nonetheless. Then I came a nice rolling block with the requisite tang sight. After considering, I just *wanted* the falling block. Tang sight will follow after I learn what I want/need, lots of options. More research puts the quality hierarchy after $$harps as approximately Pedersoli, Cimarron (often times interchangeable) then Uberti, on down.

The Cimarron has at least a ladder adjustable rear sight which will get me entry level lead lobbing. Dies secured, and THAT was a search. 100 cast 300gr ordered and on the way. Brass and LR primers will be a challenge. Powder. Searching my manuals, and online, I've settled on unobtainium H4198 and 5744. Why? Best combination of accurate and low recoil/pressure for 300gr and 405 gr loads that I can discern. As always, the hunt is almost the best part. Once the dust settles I'll report results.

Fire up a stogie on me, I appreciate the help.

-jb, puffing contentedly :cool:
 
The cowboy silhouette and cowboy action shooting games threw a life line out to lever guns and single action revolvers 20 years ago otherwise they would have been all but gone now. Interest in both of those games is waning so I see less interest in them than 10 years ago. Next time your in a big box sporting goods store look at the size of section for lever guns as compared to bolt guns, maybe 1/10th.
That's just an observation, I don't dislike cowboy guns or any vintage/antique firearms.
 
While the cowboy games did give a big boost (including bringing back some obsolete rounds into production), I don't think lever guns and SA revolvers would have died out without them.

The Ruger Blackhawk is still going strong, and because of its features, isn't allowed in most of the cowboy games (or put in a special class).

I think the waning of interest in the cowboy games now (pre virus) was at least in part due to the "gamesmen" setting the rules. Current rules that I saw a few months back require 2 (two) SA pistols to compete in certain matches. This, and some other things has, I think discouraged a number of people from even trying the games.

I don't care what the big box stores carry, never bought any gun from them, and probably never will. Using their shelf stock as a judge on the popularity of a gun type is an error, I think.
 
If you can't judge the popularity of a genre of firearms by sales of new guns or participation in shooting sports how do you measure it?
 
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