red dot sights on pistol

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brycewise

Inactive
I was hoping for some feedback on whether or not putting a red dot on a pistol was worth the expense. I have a hard time obtaining both a sight picture and accurately placing it on target with both eyes open. My vision wants to focus on one or the other and this will cause either the target or the sight to be out of focus. Typically I focus on the sights and align them on the out of focus blurry target. This causes accuracy and target identification to suffer as a result.

Red dots seem like a possible solution "band aid" for that problem, it certainly eliminates this on a rifle. I was wondering if picking up the red dot on a pistol was more difficult because of the varying and typically longer eye relief combined with a smaller objective lens for optics small enough for a handgun slide.

Also... since this would be a trial and error purchase of unknown benefits.... Has anyone tried a JP enterprises, vortex sparc or burris fastfire III and found them to be durable enough for the job? I know that the RMR or Docter is the go to sight for this but those are about $500+
 
brycewise,
Yes, putting a red dot on a pistol is certainly worth the expense of doing it. I'd guess you're relatively new to pistol/handgun shooting by the statements you've made and the questions you've asked. Don't take that the wrong way, we all started there at some time. First off, no handgun shooter anywhere can focus on both the front sight and the target at the same time. Our eyes simply don't let that happen. Experienced handgun shooters who shoot without red dots focus on the front sight and the target is a slight blur. Putting a red dot on a handgun cures many ills, focus being one of them. A red dot has no focusing to deal with. There is no eye relief on a red dot sight and the shooter simply places the red dot image where he wants the bullet to strike and shoots. There is no need to do anything else with the sight. I've been using red dots for over twenty-five years now and I've owned many, many different models and makes. Since you asked about the Burris FastFire3 I'll talk about that one for a minute. I had one on a Ruger 44mag and another one on a Win 1886 45-70 rifle and they both worked flawlessly and performed very well. I never had even one minor problem with them on either gun. FWIW, the Win 1886 would shoot consistently under two inches for five shots at my private range of 114yds (my deck rail to my backstop). Red dots are used by all top competitors in speed shooting contests and no one can even come close to their ability to get on target quickly and shoot accurately. They are extremely accurate, easy to find in a hurry, nothing to line up, are intensity adjustable for different light conditions, and come in different dot sizes, and most have a choice of reticles to choose from. There simply isn't any down side unless you want to put one on a very small concealment gun...they just aren't designed for that. For hunting, target shooting, and general plinking they simply can't be beat. Unlike a scope, there is no eye relief, field of view is outstanding, and the image doesn't "black out" if the unit isn't held straight out in front of you. It's like looking through a tin cam or a small piece of glass in the case of the FF3. I say go for it. Here's two different types of red dots on the same gun. The smaller one is a Burris FF3. This type is just a bit harder to find the dot with when you put the gun up. With just a minimum of practice that goes away. The other sight is a bit bigger but finding the target is a no brainer. If you an look through a tin can with both ends cut off (who can't ?) it's really easy to find the target. I prefer this type for everything except shooting steel plates. It's really, really easy to use. It has multiple reticles and dot sizes and adjusts for intensity over eleven different settings. It also has a lifetime guarantee. Great sight.
 

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I'll second what NSB said. I shoot pistols a lot in both action shooting (IDPA etc) and bullseye matches. I use nothing but red dots on my pistols. I do have a Burris FF III on a Springfield 1911 and it is great. No issues what so ever after @ 2200 rounds. Godd thing about red dots is it becomes easy to keep both eyes open and have quick focus along with peripheral vision. I'm 62 and with my vision iron sights is just about out of the question. I have laser grip sights on my CCW pistols.
 
for some reason , I have a hard time adjusting to pistol red dot sights. I still prefer a fiber optic from sight for now anyway. IF I had a red dot and practiced with it, I am sure I could work the "bugs " out as far as quick acquisition... For now, I will pass on this tech wonder. On a rifle..different story. LIghted optics rule the range. Iron sights work well but these optic sights are far superior for me to use @ 75 feet
 
As for quick dot acquisition there should not be a problem, if there is it could be the mounting technique used for the sight itself.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
 
I was wondering if picking up the red dot on a pistol was more difficult
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Unfortunately it is.
But with good form it doesn't need to be.
If the pistol is pointed at the target, the dot will be there.
If there's any flaw in doing that, it won't be without fishing around for it.

On the other hand, using a dot scope definitely helps develop good form.
Otherwise they disappear from view.
So, in addition to being a sighting aid, they are also a training aid.
 
I put one on my model 629 Smith & Wesson. No problem hitting a 9" paper plate out to 100 yds. But it does take some concentration on trigger control and is far from a snap shot.
 
If you are a target focused shooter, than a dot will help you, but it is no substitute for the fundamentals of pistol: stance, grip, sight picture and trigger control. Although I have two USPSA Open Division Glocks, I am not a target focused shooter, so running Open actually slows me down a bit, especially for the first shot finding the dot. For close work you actually don't use the dot at all, but look thru the window. Takes about 50,000 tries to come out quickly, however the dot makes it easier for small steel at distance, say a 6" plate at 40 yards. But a single plate does not make the match for 200 rounds. Be prepared to spend at least $225 for a entry level dot and $60 for the adapter mount. Good dots can go up to $600. The $40 Chineese dots won't last for one magazine.

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Get a Burris Fast Fire III with the Piccatiny mount and you will have little problems. I tried the fast fire. It's quick and easy to spot the dot and quicker than lining up front and rear sights. I also found it to be more accurate than iron sights.

As for as speed of the red dots go, consider USPSA and Steel Challenge matches. All the top shooters are using red dots. Same is true for Bianchi Match which is accuracy INTENSE! Also under timed fire so you have to be quick as well as accurate.
 
Ive got 3 dot sighted pistols
A G19 with a RMR. This is my EDC gun
A M&P Core with a Vortex Venom
A G34 with a Burris FFIII

the RMR is hands down the most robust of the 3 and thats why its on my carry gun. The Venom is impressing me on the range. The wide window and thin frame around it make it visually the best of the bunch.

As for not picking up the dot...thats dependant on shooter ability. As you punch the gun out to extension, try to find the sights as normal. The dot WILL be floating in space on your tgt

The guys that struggle with finding the dot are trying to see the dot. With a solid foundation in presentation skill the dot will be there. Without that skill you will have to hunt the dot.
 
Anyone who's used to looking for iron sights, is going to initially have some trouble with a dot that's two or three times higher above the slide.
The same thing happened when there was a shift from tube sights to "heads up display" type sights, as the tube itself acted as a reference. Even people who'd been shooting optics for years had to adjust.
 
Personally I think red dots on pistols are awesome. People have been doing this since the 60s, in fact a few months back American Rifleman ran a story about the first Aimpoint put onto a 1911. It was basically glued on there but you get the point.

I don't know if I would put a red dot on my carry pistol just because it is so much harder to find concealable holsters and just the fact that you are increasing the size and all. But for just plinking and certainly competition I am envious of those with red dots.

As for which one? Trijicon has some great options and I'm sure you have heard of the new red dot ready Glocks.
 
Anyone who's used to looking for iron sights, is going to initially have some trouble with a dot that's two or three times higher above the slide.
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Thats exactly the misconception. LOOK for your sights just like normal. The dot will be there. With a properly mounted scope the dot appears in the window just before the gun gets to eye level. If you have the gun level, as you would trying to align iron sights, the dot is always there first.

It took me 1 range session and less then 100 rounds to have the dot in the window as i present the gun to tgt.

Now, if you present the gun and the irons are not lined up, the dot wont be either. Its not a cure for a poor presentation and in fact will make the situation worse. If your presentation skills are good the dot is visible BEFORE your sights are fully lined up.
 
"All the top shooters are using red dots". And they have been since the mid 70's when the Tasco ProPoint came out. Still have mine, you went thru a dozen batteries in one match. However, these were not slide mounted, they were frame mounted because running major would beat a slide mount to death in a couple of matches. All the top USPSA/Steel Challenge GM's are running frame mounts, usually a C more. However the top guys compete in all divisions, just what is the next match. And Open is not the most popular division in USPSA by far, it is Single Stack! 2015 USPSA Nationals by the numbers. Now slide mounted dots are the ticket for the new Carry Optic division, which Leatham shot at this years Area 2 because Springfield has a new line of CO pistols, as well as S&W, that's why Jerry and Julie are pushing the MP with a dot. Every gun maker is jumping on this now. Keep in mind that unless you have the slide custom milled for a specific dot, it will still need an adapter. In my experience of shooting 9mm Major Open, the best slide mounted dot, that will survive years of shooting major power floor is the Docter that has been re-soldered and potted, called "hardening" You can spend allot more, but I have seen $600 dots quit in the middle of a match. The Burris FastFire is probably the best entry level dot

SS 393
Prod 369
Limited 296
Open 238
Revo 106
Lim 10 85



KincaidRoss.jpg
 
Attendance at nationals is no indication of popularity.
I'd be surprised if even 10% of shooters at local matches are shooting Single Stack.
I think Limited is still the most popular USPSA division, followed by Production.
 
Rick, at the local level yes, but this was more specific to the very top shooters. At our club, which runs every Saturday about 120 shooters, it's definitely Limited, Production, Open, L10 then SS.

Here is a Docter sight in action. Skip to 30 seconds for the shooting part.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p1OR-3xjfc
 
Make it easy, put the dot in line with the sights. then it isn't sitting above the sights any appreciable amount. Be careful with the Glock MOS, it has VERY little metal between the bottom of the mounting screws and the open slide below.

I recommend something aftermarket. Either get your slide machined or go with something like the One Source Tactical glock slides:



I use suppressor sights and the dot sits right on top of the front site. with a night sight on the front it is very easy to pick up while learning.

Another trick to learn to pick up the dot fast is to get a sight you can turn off (the RM07 RMR I use does) so you can drill without the red dot first. then after a while turn the dot on and it will be right there.

The RMR does have some drawbacks and is VERY robust but the Delta Point also has some drawbacks. Any thing larger than those two really loses the ability to co-witness the sights.

Mine is pictured above on a Glock 17 4th gen

it is an honest to goodness breeze to shoot at anything less than 60 yards with this thing.
 
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