Reconciling Different and Disparate Loading Information

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robhic

New member
I just loaded some 90gn "Lehigh Defense" rounds (the ones shaped like a star or cross bullet). A friend wanted to try them (he's a major feral pig hunter) so I told him if he got the bullets and gave me his 9mm Ruger for doing the "plunk test" I'd give 'em a try.

Got the bullets and I have 9.5 lbs of W231 so I figured I'd use that. Checked my Lyman manual, Hodgdon/Winchester online, one of those load books specifically for a certain caliber and another online source. Data for powder was fairly disparate!

Where one showed starting at 5.1gn another showed 5.1gn as the max load. Another was 4.1gn to start and as that seemed reasonable, I loaded 5 each at 4.1 and 4.2 gr for him to try. He hasn't had chance to try them but I told him to let me know how they worked and I'd either go up a tenth of a grain or two or go down as needed. But this is the first time I've had this issue.

My sources have usually agreed within a 10th of a grain or two so it wasn't such a big deal. But one saying start at 5.1 and another saying not to exceed 5.1 was a fairly large difference.

Those star-shaped Lehigh bullets are solid copper so I used 90gn FMJ data. I figured if I stayed on the low side to start, FMJ would be about right. But what's the best way to reconcile a load when the sources are that far out of agreement? I thought reducing by 10% would still be too hot so settled for the lowest of all. Now I need my boy to go find some feral pigs!
 
IMHO, unless you have multiple recipes that include the specific bullet, the specific powder, the specific primer, and the same C.O.A.L. that you are using, you don't have "disparate" loading information -- you have no loading information at all. Since the bullets you used are solid copper and you said you used data for FMJ bullets, I have to assume that you do not have load data for the specific bullet.

"FMJ" refers to a lead bullet with a thin brass or copper jacket. Lead is denser than copper. Therefore, we can conclude that if two bullets have the same diameter (which they must if they are the same caliber) and the same weight, the copper bullet must be longer. If loaded to the same C.O.A.L., the copper bullet will be seated deeper, leaving less case volume for the powder and increasing the pressure if the same powder charge is used.
 
There are a lot of safe boundaries in handloading and from my perspective and three decades, most of what we do isn’t nearly as dangerous or scary as so many preach and scream.

With that said, things change a lot when you are not talking lead or jacketed bullets. These solid copper bullets bring a few things to the table that upset the apple cart. First is that they are light for caliber which means they must be longer when they try to make up the weight. Loaded properly for a handgun, this means they eat up more internal combustion space and that is a straight directive to increase pressure.

They also offer a different resistance to being pushed down a bore which changes things also.

I say all that to suggest that when using lead and jacketed, finding the sweet, right and safe spot is a LOT easier and not nearly so dangerous and scary. But to do the same with monolithic solid copper slugs is a different game altogether.

I would absolutely go with the bullet manufacturer’s recommendation over and above all others.
 
"...the ones shaped like..." Those are a marketing gimmick.
Lehigh doesn't actually say if they're jacketed or exactly what they are. If they are solids, you do not use jacketed data for 'em. Solid copper is not as dense as a lead cored bullet.
LeHigh's site doesn't show Win 231 for 9mm. Call 'em and ask.
One does not 'Reconcile' data. All data in manuals reflect the exactly load using the exact components and conditions on the day of the test only.
 
The Lehigh data (which I didn't know about, thanks) says 4.8gn 1.105" OAL to start. I used FMJ data for a 90gn bullet: 4.1/4.2gn 1.106" OAL. The Lehigh is 90gn so the bullets are the same weight and bearing surface material. Should that be changed/reduced? He's shooting pigs and not hogs (for which I think he uses a rifle) on marsh land he owns. He hasn't tried them yet. Should I get them back and change anything? Thanks for the info!
 
Well, at least you didn't over-charge them, so he's not likely to blow up his pistol.

Since your load is well below that specified by the bullet manufacturer, my question would be whether or not they'll expand. I would suggest trying out a couple into a gallon jug of water, or a box filled with very wet newspaper.
 
Well, at least you didn't over-charge them, so he's not likely to blow up his pistol.

Since your load is well below that specified by the bullet manufacturer, my question would be whether or not they'll expand.
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I purposely started low. The OAL between the two bullets is pretty close (.001") and since the weight is the same I expected the FMJ data to be close.

Not sure about expansion. I watched some YouTube videos and penetration (through sheet metal, 3/8" plywood and sheetrock) and into 2 blocks of ballistic gel. Penetration seems to be main goal. These rounds perform very well. I think a small-ish pig will not pose a problem.
 
Aguila Blanca said:
Since your load is well below that specified by the bullet manufacturer, my question would be whether or not they'll expand.
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The only 90 grain Lehigh 9mm bullets I see on their website are the xtreme defense. And the OP stated they are 'star-shaped'.

That means they will never expand. They are not designed to do so.

You're not familiar with their bullets, are you?
 
The Lehigh is 90gn so the bullets are the same weight and bearing surface material. Should that be changed/reduced?
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The Lehigh bullets are the same weight as the FMJ you selected data for. But the construction makes a huge difference. The lead inside the FMJ will move inside the jacket and allow displacement for the rifling easier than copper solids. Copper solids are longer than jacketed for the same weight, so... no they do not have the same bearing surface. Since you opted for a load that is somewhere around 15 percent below max for the Lehigh bullets it should be ok. I think you got pretty lucky with that.

Loading for someone else's gun is risky business when you are the one shooting the test loads and looking for signs of pressure. Letting him shoot them without you there to see if there are issues is putting you at a very high risk. If anything happens to his gun or himself, he will likely blame you. As you increase the charges, you should be there with him to monitor progress. It might be better to coach your friend in loading his own ammo on your press. More of the responsibility will be on him. I wouldn't load anything for someone else at max load, just to be able to say it was not the max charge shown in the data.

I only load for my family. But I will teach anyone how to load their own.
 
The Lehigh bullets are the same weight as the FMJ you selected data for. But the construction makes a huge difference. The lead inside the FMJ will move inside the jacket and allow displacement for the rifling easier than copper solids. Copper solids are longer than jacketed for the same weight, so... no they do not have the same bearing surface. Since you opted for a load that is somewhere around 15 percent below max for the Lehigh bullets it should be ok. I think you got pretty lucky with that.
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This all new (and very technical!) to me. The FMJ bullet I used to load the Lehigh bullet was pretty much the same length and the shank portion about even for the Lehigh and the FMJ bullet I used for comparison. I also purposely loaded at the start/low end to begin with. Using his barrel and the lowest powder load made me mostly confident this would not lead to problems.

As far as teaching him to load his own, he doesn't really have the time nor the interest. Now that I have the Lehigh specific info I've decided to get the rounds I made back, pull the bullets and reload from scratch using their data. That should remove any guesswork and thanks to '74A95' for pointing me to the Lehigh site. Thanks to all for the info!
 
With the Lehiegh bullets not expanding, they will probably zip right through a pig.
Nasty wound channel from what i've seen. But your gonna want to really watch whats on the other side of the pig!
 
It depends on which bullet. The XD act like hollow points with moderate penetration and the XP act like FMJ with deep penetration.
 
robhic said:
This all new (and very technical!) to me. The FMJ bullet I used to load the Lehigh bullet was pretty much the same length and the shank portion about even for the Lehigh and the FMJ bullet I used for comparison.
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What's your idea of "pretty much" the same length? Did you measure with a caliper, or just use the Mark III Mod 2A calibrated eyeball?

The specific gravity of copper is 8.89. The specific gravity of lead is 11.35. Since lead is 28 percent denser than copper, a copper projectile of the same weight, same diameter, and same general profile has to be longer than a lead projectile. It cannot be the same length, or even nearly the same length.
 
What's your idea of "pretty much" the same length? Did you measure with a caliper, or just use the Mark III Mod 2A calibrated eyeball?

The specific gravity of copper is 8.89. The specific gravity of lead is 11.35. Since lead is 28 percent denser than copper, a copper projectile of the same weight, same diameter, and same general profile has to be longer than a lead projectile. It cannot be the same length, or even nearly the same length.
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I looked at two 90gn bullets - one Lehigh one a FMJ I had. They weren't exactly the same size, I'll admit, but very close (no calipers). Hence the "pretty much" statement. Not loading too hot nor for competition accuracy made me feel that a copper to copper bullet at low/start weight and using his barrel for 'plunking' and OAL would be OK. Were they perfect? No, but for this purpose I figured close enough.

I didn't and never have taken specific gravity and/or other (to me) very technical specs into account.That's why I've decided to get them back and start all over using the Lehigh data. That should take care of this.
 
With the Lehiegh bullets not expanding, they will probably zip right through a pig.Nasty wound channel from what i've seen. But your gonna want to really watch whats on the other side of the pig!
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He owns or leases some marsh property outside of "civilization" for hunting and fishing use. Only thing behind the pig would either be marsh or another (unlucky) pig.
 
9mm is one of the smallest cases that is in normal, popular use that is also running high pressure (35k psi max) so tiny little differences in internal space (ahem, the space that a LONGER bullet occupies) make a much larger difference in pressure than it would in a lower pressure round (say... .45 ACP) or a round with larger case capacity (.357 Magnum perhaps) or a cartridge that is both larger in space AND lower in pressure (.38 Special.)

Looking at a 9mm slug and assuming it seems to appear nearly the same size as some other slug is not a very good or very safe approach to handloading.

I’m not trying to condemn — I’m trying to share tips to promote safe and enjoyable handloading.
 
9mm is one of the smallest cases that is in normal, popular use that is also running high pressure (35k psi max) so tiny little differences in internal space (ahem, the space that a LONGER bullet occupies) make a much larger difference in pressure than it would in a lower pressure round (say... .45 ACP) or a round with larger case capacity (.357 Magnum perhaps) or a cartridge that is both larger in space AND lower in pressure (.38 Special.)

Looking at a 9mm slug and assuming it seems to appear nearly the same size as some other slug is not a very good or very safe approach to handloading.

I’m not trying to condemn — I’m trying to share tips to promote safe and enjoyable handloading.
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I hear what you're saying and appreciate the info. I DO know (unfortunately) how as little as .001gn can make a noticeable difference.

In this case, as stated, a 90gn all copper bullet and a 90gn FMJ at lowest load and made using the barrel to get OAL just seemed close enough to be alright without problems. I would not have continued with larger charge weight. I'm gonna use Lehigh's own specs (now that I have them) to try again. Thanks for the input.
 
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