Recommendations for a 7 & 1/2 SAA

B

BerdanSS

New member
Mr. Beliveau did an excellent video on Cimarrons model P a while back..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHbu3B6yHD4

And subsequently a 7 &1/2" is at the top of my short list this year, as I do not have one. I really like some of features on the 1st generation pistols. Round end ejector in light of the crescent type, and the fine, tapered sights. Now, I'm buying one strictly to shoot the heck out of. But I'm not a purest on the pistol. Black powder frame or crosspin doesn't really matter. But even though I plan on doing quite a bit of black powder reloading this year, I still have a lot of smokeless to shoot up. I'm thinking I'd really like to add a 44-40 to the collection, as I don't have any. But a 44 special would work also, as I already have boat loads of brass and the dies.

The ejector I could change myself, so the sights are the most important I guess. All of mine so far are Stoger imported Ubertis, with the exception of one pietta that I sold time ago. I though about maybe trying Cimarron or Taylors for a nicer finish? I've also looked at a couple USFAs, but don't really want to spend the extra $700 + for one that I could spend on reloading supplies or factory ammo. Although I'm sure the quality would be worth it I kick myself every time I see one for passing over a mint condition Rodeo for $450 several years back.
 
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I am no help here, Berdan...

Mine are all Uberti's with the exception of a Herbert Schmidt, George Rose, Texas Scout in .357.

Also have a Vaquero which is pretty sweet.

With the exception of one Uberti .357, all are either .44 Magnum or .45LC.

(To me emotion is a big part of the BP cartridge experience.)
 
Just to clarify, the pile of smokeless I'm talking about is 44 special, so I'd wager I'd want a cross pin frame to shoot that.


SO.....If I went with a 44-40, I'd be all black powder. I'm assuming the old model frames (even the modern forged ones) should only have BP loads fired from them? Geez, I'd half to buy new dies, more powder, accessories...Dern the luck :D

Cimarron advertises a 7 & 1/2" old model, charcoal blue (:cool:) in 44-40.

Feel free to post pictures with suggestions


Doc

Ye Gaddz :eek: a SAA with no happy nail on the hammer?! :D
 
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"Old model" SAA replicas are made for smokeless powder. The only differences are the sights, method of base pin retention, and ejector.
 
SO.....If I went with a 44-40, I'd be all black powder. I'm assuming the old model frames (even the modern forged ones) should only have BP loads fired from them? Geez, I'd half to buy new dies, more powder, accessories...Dern the luck
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No. That is incorrect.

Black Powder frame merely refers to the method of securing the cylinder pin to the frame. The original way the cylinder pin was secured in the frame of the SAA was with a small screw under the pin, angled up from the front to secure the pin. This style of frame was produced from 1873 up until around 1892 or so. The modern spring loaded transverse latch first started being phased in on some target model SAAs around 1892 IIRC, without looking it up.

Colt did not factory warranty the SAA for Smokeless Powder until 1900, so there is a bit of overlap with the frames with the early spring loaded latches that should only be used with Black Powder, and the frames and cylinders made after 1900 that were OK for Smokeless.

But ALL modern production SAA replicas are made with modern steels, regardless of the type of retention system used for the cylinder pin. These days Black Powder frame is only a label, it is not an indication of the type of propellent to be used. You can safely fire SAAMI spec Smokeless ammo in any modern made replica with the 'Black Powder' frame.

P.S. A word of advice about the Charcoal Blue finish. Yes, it is brilliant and beautiful. But it is not rugged. I had a Cimarron Cattleman with the Charcoal Blue finish a bunch of years ago. Within one year, the sweat from my hand completely rubbed all the blue off the backstrap of the gun, reducing the steel to a dull battleship gray. Dunno if they have changed the formulation more recently, but in my experience the Charcoal Blue finish was not as rugged as a standard modern blue.
 
Kapp & driftwood

Thank you sirs for clarifying that for me.

So is it safe to assume the "old Models" will all have the tapered front sight and less wide rear groove? My favorite shooter as of right now is a 4 & 3/4" cattlemen in 45 colt. to be honest, I was disappointed with when I unboxed it. I looked at an older manufactured .357 version of the same pistol, before ordering mine. The one I looked at had the fine tapered sights, which I liked quite well. When Mine came in, It had the wide square notch sights.
 
Dunno. I haven't bought a Cimarron (Uberti) revolver in a bunch of years now. The Charcoal Blue one, that I don't have any more, and the 7 1/2" 45 Colt that I still have both had old fashioned 'V' groove rear sights and the tapered front blade. My 2nde Gen Colts have the more modern squared off rear sights and the thicker front sight. Either can be used, it is just that the squared off rear sight makes the sight picture a bit easier to acquire. But it is certainly possible to shoot the old 'V' groove, Colt made them like that for many years.
 
I have an older Cimarron in 44-40 from when they were located in Houston. It is a black powder frame and has the tapered front sight. The grips are aftermarket and it has Wolff springs in it. It is rated for smokeless and gets some of it from time to time but mainly it gets black.

 
I have a 2008 Cimarron Model P 4-3/4" in 45 Colt which is a rebadged Uberti Cattleman. It has the newer base pin arrangement and flattened head on the shell ejector, along with the old thin groove rear sight and thin blade front. I don't know what sights more recent Model Ps have, I.E. 2009 to present.

I really don't think there's much difference between the Cimarron and the Uberti, you hear Cimarron demands Uberti's highest quality but I expect they're quite similar - very good.
 
One thing about Cimarron is all the Italian markings are hidden under the ejector rod housing. The only thing that shows is the cat number that all Italian exports are required to have. Cimarron's barrel address is lightly roll stamped in the style of the originals.
 
Berdan

I am sure you know this and probably know more about it than I do.

But I went through a fracas where I loaded Triple 7 (a hot powder) FFFg (fast burning granulation) using full loads in my .44 Magnum and .45LC rounds. (Yes...I know...I know. When I road Sportsters, 900 wasn't fast enough.)

I did not get any indication of over pressure on the cases or primers. But the recoil was very heavy and the pistols got hot quick. Speeds were just slightly higher than with Pyrodex or Goex and I attributed that to the Triple 7 and not to the granulation. (Never gave it a thought. I guess that is why inexperienced people get killed.)

A guy at Hodgdon told me that the FFFg containers are marked with a warning not to use the granulation in cartridges. That is not true. If there ever was a marking (and I think there was) it was not on any of the jugs that I have, nor any I could find in stores. But that doesn't matter. I was getting enough info here and elsewhere that raised my level of concern.

After a rather lengthy discussion on this forum and a good bit of reading I decided to download the rounds and start over. Just too scary.

I took apart everything that started with a "4" that was loaded with FFFg. That included some four or five hundred rounds.

I am using the FFFg for .357 and for cap and ball.

As I said previously, probably everyone on this forum is smart enough to avoid the mistake I made. I just thought I would mention it.
 
I really like the cross pin, especially for black powder cleaning, just pop the cylinder out and in. I am shooting .44-40 which seals most of the blow back.
 
Good info Doc. any experience with other BP substitutes? such as american pioneer and the like? I have LOADS of regular ol pyrodex P. A Shop about an hours drive from me that specializes in ML parts, weapons and accouterments....Stocks several brands/types of real holy black. For quite attractive prices :D

Think I'm starting to Zero in on the Cimarron Model P (in standard blue) 44-40. Mostly due to the firearm right below it on my short list, is either a '73 carbine or a 1860 Henry in 44-40 to match.
 
I have used full case loads of Pyrodex RS with good results. Recoil is stout tho as it is with the holy black. 44-40's were definitely not wusses back in the day.
 
44-40's were definitely not wusses back in the day.
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The 44-40 and 45 colt had the same 40gr powder charge. The 44-40 used a .428 diameter, 200gr. bullet and the 45 colt used a .451 diameter, 250gr. bullet. That's the difference.
 
Why not buy a real SSA Colt. Cost is not a factor for those who have already bought 3-4 imitation Colts. Why not be an owner of the real Mc Coy this occasion.
 
A .44 Special - .44 WCF convertible is perfectly feasible if you don't get hung up in Internet Drivel about the .002" nominal difference in bullets and barrels. Which is not nearly as hard and fast as some would have you think.

My Colt .44 Special with WCF cylinder added shoots 240 gr Specials and 200 gr WCFs to the sights on its 7.5" barrel. I went with a 4.75" barrel for a while and both calibers did not shoot together.

Looks like it would take a gunsmith, though; all I see are .45-.45 convertibles today.

But that way, you could shoot .44 WCF with black powder and the thin brass to give a good chamber seal; and .44 Special with nitro.
 
Jim

Good info, thank you sir.

Mc Gee

Jenny-wine Colt? :cool: As much as I would LOVE that, not out of my pocketbook sir :(
Found 3 original SAAs Cavalry models in 44-40....all over 3K


Is the cool factor of the 7th cavalry model Cimarron worth the extra Cash?-{EDIT} Shucks, only available in .45. The pictures on their website looks like the frame is Pack hardened?
 
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The 44-40 and 45 colt had the same 40gr powder charge. The 44-40 used a .428 diameter, 200gr. bullet and the 45 colt used a .451 diameter, 250gr. bullet. That's the difference.
Click to expand...

True.


A .44 Special - .44 WCF convertible is perfectly feasible if you don't get hung up in Internet Drivel about the .002" nominal difference in bullets and barrels. Which is not nearly as hard and fast as some would have you think.
Click to expand...

Most modern 44-40's have .429 bores and they do or at least did make 44-40/.44 special convertibles.
 
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