Recoil question comments

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BoogieMan

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For a particular cartridge and barrel length recoil should remain constant. The weight of a gun may make the perceived or felt recoil slightly less. This is what I am always told and in my experience seems to hold true. However, many forums are stating that a Beretta O/U 12ga tends to recoil much harder than competitive brands. This may be due to lightweight models from Beretta. But, Beretta LW should have same recoil as a Browning LW. Is it possible there is something in the geometry of Beretta? Is this just an internet rumor gone viral?
I have shot 30-06 in Ruger American and Remington 700. I would rate the recoil identical with a slight edge going to the Ruger. Likely because the ruger plastic stock is lighter than the Remington
I ask because I bought a Beretta Onyx sight unseen. I have always admired the Beretta OU and love my A300 Xtrema so I assume that I will have a similar love of the Onyx. Anyone have an experience with different guns in the same cartridge that behave much different?
 
Actual recoil is calculated by using 4 factors.

Weight of the projectile
Weight of the powder charge
Velocity of the projectile
Weight of the firearm

So the weight of the gun is a factor in actual recoil


Perceived recoil has lots of factors, most are over rated and are really between the ears. Tell people that a 7 mag kicks harder harder than a 30-06 and most will agree with you. The actual recoil is almost identical and if someone were to fire one of each without knowing could not tell the difference.

The shape of the stock comes into play and if the stock doesn't fit well recoil will be perceived as greater. Most lever action 30-30's have poorly designed stocks and hurt much more than the actual numbers say they should.

Speed of recoil is a factor. If 2 guns both have 30 ft lbs of recoil, the one that recoils slower will seem more comfortable to most people. Recoil pads slow down recoil. Gas operated semi-autos slow down recoil. Heavier projectiles moving at slower speeds have slower recoil than lighter bullets moving faster even though the actual recoil may be the same.
 
JMR40- So how does a gun like the Beretta line of O/U get a reputation for being "thumper" when other very similar O/U guns like the Browning do not? In this case its a very widespread rumor. Several local guys have mentioned this to me, one dealer said it was a prime reason he couldnt sell the and its widespread on the forums.
Both guns are very close in weight and dimension. They shoot identical cartridge/shell
 
Yes, as jmr40 has said, the fit of the gun can make all the difference.
With shotguns, maybe more so than the other considerations.
If you find this shotgun recoil objectionable, definitely get it fit to you.
And for the clay games, check out all the lower recoil ammo there is these days.
 
When the other factors are approxitmately equal, the difference is how the stock fits the shooter.

Stocks that are "straightline" feel like they have less recoil, in a given caliber. They don't, what they have is less muzzle rise. And the reverse is true, stocks with more drop have more muzzle rise, and seem to "kick harder".

I have personal experience with this. My Grandfather's shotgun, an Ithaca, was made to his order, and the stock has "a bit" more drop than common. That gun will slap you in the face, and kick the snot out of you, with DOVE LOADS, unless you happen to have the same rough physical build as my Grandfather had. (or you know its going to do it...first time I ever shot it (at 15), I split my lip with my thumb! After that, KNOWING not to put my thumb over the wrist of the stock, it never happened again. :D)

When power (energy) and gun weight are roughly the same, it comes down to the shape of the stock, and how it fits the individual shooter.

If a particular gun has a reputation for kicking worse than others, its probably shooter/stock fit.
 
I'll go with the stock droo answer. I have never actually meassured the drop on my beretta versus the browning but they are substantially different. For whatever reason I cannot hit a clay with a browning. Beretta or remington wingmaster I plaster doubles and triples all day long.
 
For a particular cartridge and barrel length recoil should remain constant. The weight of a gun may make the perceived or felt recoil slightly less. This is what I am always told and in my experience seems to hold true
Click to expand...

Not totally correct. As mentioned, the weight of the gun is a MAJOR factor. The dimensions of the stock have a lot to do with the felt recoil - aka "kick" - and that involves the drop at heel, drop at comb, thickness of the comb, radius of the grip (if any) the pitch, cast on or off, toe in or out, and yes, the LOP
 
BoogieMan said:
...how does a gun like the Beretta line of O/U get a reputation for being "thumper" when other very similar O/U guns like the Browning do not?..
Click to expand...

Recoil energy and felt (perceived) recoil are two different things.

Recoil energy is a precise, physical quantity that is a function of the weight (mass) of the bullet, the weight (mass) of the powder charge, the muzzle velocity of the bullet, the muzzle velocity of the powder gases, and the weight (mass) of the gun. If you have those quantities for a given load in a given gun, you can calculate the amount of recoil energy produced when that load is fired in that gun. And a heavy bullet will produce more recoil energy than a lighter bullet fired from the same gun at a comparable velocity. Note that --

  • Recoil energy is directly proportional to the mass of the ejecta, i. e., recoil energy increases as the mass of the ejecta increase. The mass of the ejecta is made up of --

    • The mass of the bullet; and

    • The mass of the gases produced by the burning powder (which is directly proportional to the mass of the powder charge).

  • Recoil energy is directly proportional to the velocity of the ejecta, i. e., recoil energy increases as the mass of the ejecta increase. The velocity of the ejecta includes --

    • The velocity of the bullet; and

    • The velocity of the burning powder gases.

  • Recoil energy is inversely proportional to the mass of the gun, i. e., as the mass of the gun increases, recoil energy decreases.

If you're interested, you can calculate the recoil energy of a given load using the following formula1:

WG = Weight of gun in pounds
WB = Weight of bullet in grains
WP = Weight of powder charge in grains
VB = Muzzle velocity of bullet in f/s
I = Interim number (Recoil Impulse in lb/sec)
VG = Recoil velocity of gun (f/s)
EG = Recoil energy of gun (ft lb)

I = [(WB * VB) + (WP * 4000)] / 225218

VG = 32.2 * (I / WG)

EG = (WG * VG * VG) / 64.4

Felt recoil is a subjective matter. Various factors can affect how recoil is perceived. In a long gun, like a shotgun, gun fit can be a major influence -- especially things like the shape of the comb, the shape and dimensions of the buttpad, the drop at the comb, the angle of the buttpad relative to the bore axis, cast-on of cast-off of the buttstock, and the thickness and angle of the grip are some of the attributes of gun fit which can influence how one perceives recoil.
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1. This formula is quite similar to a formula for free recoil set out at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_recoil, although I think that the formula from Wikipedia may be a little more precise based on what I've read in Hatcher's Notebook. The formula I've reproduced above, is from the Q&As at http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscella.htm (specifically the question about why some guns of the same caliber kick harder than others). John Schaefer (FrFrog) notes that, "..."4000" is the nominal velocity of the powder gases at the muzzle for commercial smokeless powder and the observed range is between 3700 and 4300 f/s. It is sometimes stated as 4700 in some sources but this is based on observations of artillery, not small arms...." The Wikipedia formula would use the actual powder gas velocity, which may not be readily available.
 
I seem to remember being told it had something to do with the Pitch of the shotgun stock and the way they fit in the average shooter's shoulder causing it to rotate more sharply for most people. FITASC is correct in all of those measurements having an effect on the gun but I believe (not guaranteeing) that I was taught this particular example had to do with an odd factory pitch.
 
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