recent developments in the "real micro" pocket gun segment - any?

S

simonrichter

New member
talking about real small pocket guns (say: 4,5 inches OAL and smaller), it appears to me that there are only quite dated models on the market (Baby Browning, Astra Cub etc.). In the light of the developments on the pocket gun sector in the recent years, that seems to be a little odd. Or is that BECAUSE the calibers fit for such real tiny guns became somewhat despised with the rise of also quite small 380ies, 9mm etc.?
A Baby Browning sized gun with a decent modern trigger (DAO or the like), polymer frame etc. would sure be a nice gadget, yet there seems to be no market...
 
I think ammo availability probably plays a big part. Some of the old go-to calibers for itty bitty guns like .32 ACP, .25 Auto, etc. are borderline obsolete since there are more efficient cartridges with more power and more inherent accuracy, without adding much if any recoil. I know there is still .32 and .25 on the shelves, but you don't have the range of options you would get from a .380 or even a .22 LR. It's nice to be able to try a bunch of brands and bullets to see what your gun likes, and have your dirt cheap plinking ammo as well as your higher end defense stuff readily available.

I am not a person who believes bigger is better for defensive cartridges, but a few of the cartridges that used to be used are a little too weak for my liking. I have a .25 that I was given to carry when I turned 21 and it is definitely better than nothing, but it was pathetically impotent when I did a soggy phone book test at 8 yards.
 
I think it's because if you are going to jump through all the hoops to legally carry, you might as well carry a real gun. For just a few ounces more, you can carry a 9mm with a longer barrel ....

....and while a .25ACP out of a barrel not much longer than the cartridge may well be enough to cause a serious injury to an attacker, there are better tools for the job, I think, and they cost less and are easier to feed. ALL easily concealed pistols are underpowered, so why double down on the shortcoming?

Myself, I don't even consider the mouseguns ...... a decent compact auto carried IWB is a better option for both comfort and concealment under my everyday attire, and would be the better tool should I ever need it.
 
I share the OP's thought line and almost started a similar thread.

How cool would a dehorned polymer frame, DAO, thinnest possible .25 ACP gun be? You could make it so thin and tiny that it would disappear. Granted, nobody but a few of us would want it.

Yes, I understand that .25 ACP is less than ideal, but the purpose of a tiny, disappearing gun is that you might carry that gun when other guns would get left behind.

My imaginary .25 ACP gun would be 10 rounds, have a full grip length (but not thickness) and be a 4" barreled gun. It would also have full-sized handgun sights instead of mouse-gun sights.
 
My original idea for a single-stack "mouse" gun was .25 ACP, but of a similar form factor (barrel length) of Kahr P9/T9. I realize that most people would want a P380 style .25 ACP, but I prefer my CC guns to be light and thin but also enjoy getting my entire hand on the gun.

After thinking about the world's objections to using a .25 ACP for self-defense, my thoughts turned to 5.7x28mm. It's brass is .311" at it's widest, so (this is me talking out of my butt) maybe it would be possible to make a single-stack 5.7x28mm gun come in at 0.75" (maybe slightly wider with the slide-stop and magazine release button). Then, you'd have a full-power gun in a mouse-gun package.

Before you critique the 5.7x28mm cartridge for it's lack of stopping power, remember, the goal of my idea (and probably the OP's) is to make a disappearing gun. Why not .38 ACP? Because it is thicker at it's thickest point at .374" and the bullet is also larger, theoretically forcing the design to incorporate a wider barrel and slide.

.25 ACP would allow for even a thinner gun still. Why not .22 LR? Because of the inherent unreliability of the cartridge. It's all about having a centerfire primer and thicker, more consistently made brass.

As long as we are day-dreaming, I'd also love a thin P9/T9 version of Kahr's P380. Just upsize the P380 to a 4" barrel. I am also probably the only person in the world who would want that gun, too. Also, I'd love it if Kahr's were true DAO. OK. End day dreaming.
 
yet there seems to be no market...
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I think the market is vastly underestimated... its one of those build it and we will buy items.

A lot of people would buy a modern poly baby Browning just for the sake of having it around when needed, or as a backup.

The success of the little NAA micro 22lr revolvers should give a bit of insight.
 
A lot of people would buy a modern poly baby Browning just for the sake of having it
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There, fixed it for you.:D
Just like my NAA 22 Short Mini Revolver, it would most likely remain as a range toy while my Else a Pea, and CM9 share the pocket concealment roll with Elsie getting the majority of time.
Yes, some would consider a modernized Baby Browning for CCW, but not in sufficient numbers for any company to tool up for a reasonably priced one.
 
simonrichter said:
talking about real small pocket guns (say: 4,5 inches OAL and smaller), it appears to me that there are only quite dated models on the market (Baby Browning, Astra Cub etc.). In the light of the developments on the pocket gun sector in the recent years, that seems to be a little odd. Or is that BECAUSE the calibers fit for such real tiny guns became somewhat despised with the rise of also quite small 380ies, 9mm etc.?
A Baby Browning sized gun with a decent modern trigger (DAO or the like), polymer frame etc. would sure be a nice gadget, yet there seems to be no market...
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Talking about really small pistols, on this side of the pond the creme-de-la-creme among many cognoscenti are the Seecamp LWS 32 and LWS 380. They aren't especially new, and they aren't polymer. However, they are highly sought-after, and people who know what they are don't mind paying two to three times the price of a new Keltec to get one. In fact, people will line up to get on the waiting list.

Seecamp-LWS-32-left-300x229.jpg


http://seecamp.com/

Review: http://gunsgunsguns.net/seecamp-lws-380/

No doubt inspired by the Seecamps are the North American Arms Guardian line:
http://northamericanarms.com/firearms/32guard.html

25naa.jpg


In fact, Seecamp initially filed a lawsuit against North American when they came out with the Guardian. It was settled out of court, with North American agreeing to certain restrictions on the configuration of their pistols. Recently, I've heard rumblings that North American may have violated the terms of that agreement.

The NAA .25 is a proprietary cartridge developed by North American for this pistol. It's a necked-down .32 ACP case firing a .25 caliber bullet at crazy velocities (for what it is -- it won't stop an elephant).
 
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Everybody says the 25 acp is underpowered but I saw a video on YouTube last night where the guy tested it. The ammo was 25 acp hornady xtp hollow points I forget what gr maybe 35. He fired the round at ballistic gel covered with denim not sure what range. The result. The round penetrated up to 11 inches.

Was the 25 acp round developed around short barreled guns? Does anyone know? If you were to build one with a longer barrel and and create a new kind of ammo with a powder that would give optimum burn for that barrel length wouldn't it in theory amp up the power of the cartridge?
 
Was the 25 acp round developed around short barreled guns? Does anyone know? If you were to build one with a longer barrel and and create a new kind of ammo with a powder that would give optimum burn for that barrel length wouldn't it in theory amp up the power of the cartridge?
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Not sure, but the .25 ACP just doesn't have the case capacity to hold more slow burning powder so I doubt a longer barrel would help much.

One reason why some think .25 ACP is on par with a pellet gun is that many of the el cheapo .25 pocket Saturday night special, the bores could be oversized or rusted/worn and that lowered velocity quite a bit.
 
I have the impression that there was good demand for .25 Auto pistols before the National Firearms Act of '68 banned the importation of inexpensive models. The existence of Precision Small Arms shows a demand for the Baby Browning still exists, but only at a level that commands a premium price. I assume the recent decision by Beretta USA to kill the Bobcat and Tomcat might be related to a combination of low demand, replacement by the Nano (although the promised .32 Auto has not yet appeared), and the trend toward building subcompact and pocket pistols in .380 Auto and 9 Luger.

I saw a video on YouTube last night where the guy tested it. The ammo was 25 acp hornady xtp hollow points I forget what gr maybe 35. He fired the round at ballistic gel covered with denim not sure what range. The result. The round penetrated up to 11 inches.
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The IWBA recommended a minimum penetration of 13.0 inches in heavily clothed gel; thus, what you saw was a failed test. It was interesting to see a .25 JHP expand and penetrate that far, but I'd never use a hollowpoint for self defense in a .25 Auto pistol.

Was the 25 acp round developed around short barreled guns?
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As I recall, Browning invented the .25 Auto cartridge in 1905, and I think the first pistol commercially available chambered in that caliber was the Colt M1908 Vest Pocket, which I think is similar in size to the Baby Browning, which came out in the '20s. Thus, I'm pretty sure the round was always intended to be used in small handguns.

If you were to build one with a longer barrel and and create a new kind of ammo with a powder that would give optimum burn for that barrel length wouldn't it in theory amp up the power of the cartridge?
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I doubt the .25 Auto was designed because of any clamor for a smaller cartridge; rather, the demand for a smaller handgun with more firepower than a derringer drove the need for the round. If you build a bigger pistol that pistol can easily handle the recoil of the .32 Auto, so the advantage of the .25 is negated.

I think it makes sense to balance gun size and cartridge size. A pocket pistol with a 1-finger grip pairs well with the .25 Auto. When I shoot a .45 Auto I want all three of my fingers firmly on the grip.
 
Yes, some would consider a modernized Baby Browning for CCW, but not in sufficient numbers for any company to tool up for a reasonably priced one.
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eh.. I dunno... the .32 is no prize winner either, but there are several companies still making them as small as they can.
Why not do the same with a 25 and make it even smaller?

The lengthy history of the 25acp - Colts, Brownings and a long list of other folks making them out of steel - should indicate that there will always be a market for a tiny 25.
Also worth mentioning is that the baby Brownings still go for $500.
What we're lacking is a modern, super-light, super-thin, poly, baby Browning/Colt/LCP... I think it'd sell like crazy, especially with CCW in nearly all states.

Perhaps Glock will be the first to produce it? :D :rolleyes:

Honestly, I think Kahr could pull it off proper...
 
The IWBA recommended a minimum penetration of 13.0 inches in heavily clothed gel; thus, what you saw was a failed test. It was interesting to see a .25 JHP expand and penetrate that far, but I'd never use a hollowpoint for self defense in a .25 Auto pistol.
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Then carry ball 25acp has showed 16 + inches . Lots of 25 acp sold every year just like 32acp . These 2 rounds are not going away any time soon .
I have a Bauer bought in late 1970's Still a nice little carry gun . My #1 25 is the Beretta 950 followed by the Beretta model 20 (that's kinda a 950 made DA/SA ) Whole lot better than these newer model 21's . I have 2 of those in 22. Bought when my daughters were young . I will say with CCI neither has ever jammed or misfired .Cheap Milk carton ammo yes .That why I only shoot CCI in them.
 
Boberg is looking at developing the XR9-u - micro version of its XR9-s. I can't imagine something in 9mm significantly smaller than the XR9-s (which he claims would be rated for +p too), but if/when it comes out, I'm all in!
 
The IWBA recommended a minimum penetration of 13.0 inches in heavily clothed gel; thus, what you saw was a failed test. It was interesting to see a .25 JHP expand and penetrate that far, but I'd never use a hollowpoint for self defense in a .25 Auto pistol.
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Certainly any attacker with an eleven inch, bleeding wound through skin, tissue, and possibly an organ or two will pull out a copy of some association's recommendations to tell you that the bullet you just put in him is insufficient!:eek:
 
This little baby has put down more whitetail deer from car strikes than most hunters rifle. Dont underestimate the 22mag. Winchester makes a PDX1 load for it.

 
I have a Colt Vest Pocket .25, and can't even figure out how to hold it?
It's too small to hold in a conventional grip.
I've tried a reverse hold, first gripping the gun in my weak hand with my index finger around the front of the trigger guard, then wrapping my strong hand around the weak. It actually feels pretty comfortable, and results in a normal trigger reach, but I can't imagine putting in any time developing it as a technique for SHTF situations.
I think the trigger is about 4#, and the grip safety is 5#, making the shooting more like a squeezing of the whole grip rather than just the trigger.
I'd rather plan around a larger gun.
 
a Keltec "P25" would be a really flat little gun.
The Browning "baby" in the lightweight version weighs 9 oz.
The Seecamp is a fine little gun, but it's pretty heavy.
The NAA .32 Seecamp copy is extremely heavy for pocket carry. The .380 version is larger and even heavier.
A remake of the Bernardelli Vest Pocket model, with an alloy frame would result in a tiny, flat, lightweight pocket gun.
 
Then carry ball 25acp has showed 16 + inches . Lots of 25 acp sold every year just like 32acp . These 2 rounds are not going away any time soon .
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.25" holes with 16" penetration ...... why bother when premium defense ammo in all the serious calibers will give you nearly 3 times the expansion, with twice the energy, and adequate penetration....... "It's better than nothin' " is so very true: There is nothing it's better than. Every other choice beats it in almost every way, except the maybe the prize for "tiniest, hardest to shoot well" handgun ...... Not a race worth entering, methinks.

There are tiny guns out there .... decent ones are expensive ...... and they are not exactly dominating the CCW market, are they? What manufacturer in his right mind would spend the coin to tool up and produce something for a market so tiny? With no guarantee that the thing wold even work?
 
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