Rebarrel sticker shock

[Geezerbiker]

I really need your opinions on if I'm just out of line or if I'm being over charged. My 77/22 Hornet rifle has been the rifle from hell. I paid to much for it in the first place and then I found out it had a gouge in the chamber from when it was poorly rechambered to .22 K-Hornet.

I sent it out to a somewhat local gunsmith and got a bid of $550 to put a new barrel on it and he told me that it would be another 50 bux to thread it for a suppressor. So I bit. I was kind of broke so it took me almost a year to send in the first $300 bux. I expected it would be around another $300 to get it back.

Then today I got this invoice and the price is a shocker for sure. So am I getting taken of a ride or is this what these things cost now a days...

I'm having a problem with the invoice. I'll try and fix it and post it again...

Tony

 

[Geezerbiker]

Let's see if this works...

It's still coming though rather large but I'm not sure how to fix it...

Tony

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Was the $550 "bid" you received a quotation, or an estimate?

Did you ask him to bed the action and free float the barrel, or did he do that without authorization?

 

[Geezerbiker]

It was a bid and he asked about the barrel channel and only asked if I wanted it opened up. I told him to open it up because I didn't think it would add more than 30 or 40 bucks to the repair. Now I'm going to be in it a total of $1320 into it including the purchase price.

Tony

 

[HiBC]

I certainly understand that you don't feel good about how much money you have spent on this rifle.

Who had the power to say "Good Gravy! Thats more money than I want to put in this rifle. What else is possible?"

If I'm going to pay someone to do a job,do I sign a blank check,or get a written quote,or a high limit estimate
Myself,I won't even buy a package of salami if I can't find a price on it.

I'm not taking sides....but we all get choices.

Now,if he jacked the price up above what you agreed to pay,you have a legit complaint. If he said $50 for the suppressor threads and billed $100,I'd say you have a legit beef...for $50. If he said $550 and billed $650 for the rebarrel.....I can see how you might have an issue,over a total of $150 .You said this was spread out over a year. Price can go up over a year.

Your pain over the $1300+ investment ..I'm sure its real,but its not the gunsmith's problem. You are only dealing with $150,maybe.

As far as his rates.. Its not my place to tell a tradesman what his rates should be. But shop flat rates have to cover a lot of overhead. Taking your handle "Geezerbiker" what is the flat rate per hour at the motorcycle shop?
A full day of work on a motorcycle at a $100 an hour flat rate would make for a big bill. Plus parts!

Its not unusual for a shop flat rate to be $60 to $100 plus an hour. Thats not wage,thats rent,taxes,insurance,utilities,maybe an ITAR permit.

It won't work to think in terms of paying a Gunsmith $25 an hour.

If he has an $80 an hour flat rate,he charged an hour for the free float and bed job. If he can do that in an hour, IMO,he's doing OK.

I do my own work. I'm slow. I might only be working for $1 an hour. I'd go broke as a pro gunsmith.

Life is hard sometimes.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The gunsmith's hourly rate is irrelevant if he quoted a price to do the job. But I still don't accept that the word "bid" means anything.

In the past, I have requested prices from various contractors for my house -- in particular, I'm thinking of a painter, a sitework contractor, and a tree removal company. In all three cases I asked for a firm price -- what I received was presented as an estimate. The sitework guy did the work for the price -- but I subsequently found that he hadn't used the grade of crushed stone that I had specified. Both the painter and the tree removal guy ran up to their "estimated" price without completing the work, then told me they would need more money to finish. I fired them both.

Back to the OP:

The way the gunsmith's "bid" was worded is important. If it was in writing, it was either a "quote" to do the work for an agreed-upon price, or it was an "estimate" -- which isn't a fixed price, it is what it says it is -- an estimate.

If it was verbal, then it's a he said/she said situation. Geezerbiker though he had a quotation to do the rebarrel for $550, plus another $50 to thread the new barrel. The gunsmith will probably take the position that it was only an estimate.

It sounds like there is some very real lack of communication regarding the bedding. Geezerbiker says he agreed to let the 'smith "open up" the barrel channel, but there's no mention of bedding. And Geezerbiker apparently didn't ask how much it would cost to open up the barrel channel.

I definitely think the gunsmith should eat the cost of the bedding, since that was apparently not discussed or authorized. Beyond that, without knowing if the "bid" was made as a fixed price quote or as an estimate, I can't offer an opinion.

 

[HiBC]

I certainly agree I do not have enough info to play "Judge Judy"

And I'm not trying to make a ruling. I don't know.

I'm just throwing out that the gunsmith is not necessarily a bad guy.

The guy spending the money has a responsibility to himself to nail down the price in writing.

Also exactly what is to be done.

And if the agreed upon price was $50,and the bill was $100,The issue is $50.

For the $550 agreed upon price,the bill was $650. It seems to me the disputed amount is $100 plus $50 The $150 is the issue,not the pain of the $1300 plus.

Meeting half way makes the pain $75 each. Just a thought.

 

[Geezerbiker]

I plan to negotiate with him about the glass bedding and the threading of the muzzle but what I'd really like to know is if having a Benchmark barrel installed at that price is reasonable.

We did this all over the phone and I'm guilty of not asking for it in writing and I sent a deposit without knowing the final price.

He originally tried to set the barrel back and recut the chamber but the gouge in the chamber only moved back and there wasn't enough meat in the barrel to set it back far enough to fix it. He said he'd write off the cost of this if I went with the rebarrel but I'm thinking he just rolled it into the rebarrel job...

Tony

 

[Scorch]

As a working gunsmith, I will tell you that any estimate for work is not good for a year. Maybe 3 months, but definitely not a year. Prices have been increasing steadily over the past 7 or 8 years, so much so that I can no longer do the same work for what I did it a year ago. Barrels that cost $170 a year ago now cost $240, epoxy resin that cost $17/qt a year ago now costs $25. Tooling is 3X the cost it was 5 years ago. Materials are much more expensive. And groceries and gas are more expensive as well, which is what most gunsmiths are working for. My questions would be
a- did he do the work you asked for?
b- did he do it well and correctly?
c- does the rifle shoot as you expected it to?

You asked your smith to rebarrel the rifle, thread the muzzle, provide a thread protector, and open the barrel channel. He did a bit more by bedding it, he probably thought it needed it. You wanted good work, not cheap work. What you paid is not a bad price. I tell customers rebarreling will cost $700-$1000 when they ask (depending on the barrel used, profile, finish, etc), no one is disappointed when the job costs less than expected.

Also, going back and whining after the work is complete and you have the rifle is a non-starter to me, it gets customers fired. I had a customer do that to me, said I had charged him too much and demanded $100 back. I gave him the $100. I also told him I wouldn't work on his guns. It hurt his feelings. I told him working relations are like any other relation, treat each other like you want to remain friends and you'll remain friends. He said he really liked my work. Too bad, should have thought about that before.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

You asked your smith to rebarrel the rifle, thread the muzzle, provide a thread protector, and open the barrel channel.

Where did Geezerbiker say he asked for a thread protector?

And he didn't ask to have the barrel channel opened up, the gunsmith suggested it. Geezerbiker agreed to have it done, but it doesn't appear that bedding was proposed or discussed at all.

I sent it out to a somewhat local gunsmith and got a bid of $550 to put a new barrel on it and he told me that it would be another 50 bux to thread it for a suppressor.

 

[Geezerbiker]

So it's looking like he installed an expensive, high quality barrel and probably earned the cost to do so. I didn't asks for the bedding job, I only expected him to use a power tool to open up the barrel channel.

I did ask for the muzzle to be threaded but I didn't expect the price to do so to double and since he had to cut and crown a new barrel off the rifle, it should have been less work...

So now I have to figure out how to come up with 300 bucks more than I budgeted for when money is already very tight. I don't like to complain about money but CORVID19 has decimated my business.

Tony

 

[rmh3481]

Have your weapon returned and take another look.

 

[Double K]

I have a good bit of gunsmithing done from year to year and have learned over the years to communicate with gunsmiths pretty well and establish what work will be done and how much they will charge, email is the easiest and most foolproof way to do it. If either one of you don't remember the exact details of the job and price it can easily be checked in a few minutes.
The prices look spot on for what I've paid, as far as him bedding the action my guess it was mentioned casually in phone conversation, agreed on and forgotten.
My 22 K-Hornet
Used Anschutz 1413 1000.00
Shilen ss match grade barrel 360.00
Unpin and remove oem barrel, chamber new barrel thread action and barrel and install. 320.00
Shipping 40.00
Total 1720.00
It's okay to tell your wives shooting is a inexpensive hobby, some guys say it often enough they actually start to believe it themselves!

 

[Double K]

Btw, I had 77/22 hornet that was a good shooter and asked several gunsmiths if they would recut the chamber to K-hornet, they talked me out of it because the Ruger has a two piece bolt and can't handle much pressure without locking up.
I don't know if that's true but was advised not to do by different gunsmiths.

After shooting the K-hornet for a couple of years I can say without reservation I think it's a waste of time and money, there's not a significant gain in performance or case life and you loose one round of magazine capacity.

 

[Nathan]

This is not a statement as to whether you paid what you thought you should or if it was right for this gunsmith to charge you this amount.

I will tell you that a Benchmark blank to your door will cost about $350 and many months. I will tell you that my last rifle build was quoted as $300 to thread, fit and chamber. I have seen $50-$200 to thread a muzzle. I don’t know why that varies sooooo much. It is likely based highly on how the barrel is being setup for the cut. To properly setup a cut takes time. I paid $80 for a bed & float last year. Bedding too seems to vary from $80-$600 based on what is actually done.

 

[Double K]

Going rate around here for threading/re-crowning/re-bluing a bolt gun is 125.00 and that doesn't include a thread protector. Those three pretty much go hand in hand, not that expensive.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I will tell you that a Benchmark blank to your door will cost about $350 and many months. I will tell you that my last rifle build was quoted as $300 to thread, fit and chamber. I have seen $50-$200 to thread a muzzle. I don’t know why that varies sooooo much. It is likely based highly on how the barrel is being setup for the cut. To properly setup a cut takes time. I paid $80 for a bed & float last year. Bedding too seems to vary from $80-$600 based on what is actually done.

Going rate around here for threading/re-crowning/re-bluing a bolt gun is 125.00 and that doesn't include a thread protector. Those three pretty much go hand in hand, not that expensive.

I think we're drifting here. I don't think Geezerbiker (the OP) is complaining that the price of the total job is unreasonable. I think his complaint is that the final price significantly exceeded what he was led to expect it would be.

He was quoted a price of $550 for the new barrel, installed, plus $50 to thread the barrel. That should be $600, regardless of whether you use the new math or the math I learned back in the stone age. But the price for those two things came to $650 for the barrel (that's +100 right there), and $100 to thread the barrel (that's another +50).

So, without even getting into the fact that the gunsmith bedded the barrel, which was work that apparently had not been asked for or authorized, the price was $150 (25 percent) more than the price that was quoted.

If you argue that the $100 for threading the barrel includes a thread protector -- yes, it does. But Geezerbiker didn't ask for a thread protector, and he could have bought one himself for under $25. The thread protector probably cost the gunsmith $15 from Brownells, so charging $50 for it seems a bit usurious.

And then there's the issue of bedding the barrel without having been authorized to do so, and then charging for it.

I don't know what the work is worth if charged for on a time-and-materials basis. The OP's concern is that he was quoted a price, and then charged a much higher price. If that happened to me, I think I would be seeing the gunsmith in small claims court. I have zero tolerance for bait-and-switch business practices, and that's what this appears to be.

 

[HiBC]

I don't know what the work is worth if charged for on a time-and-materials basis. The OP's concern is that he was quoted a price, and then charged a much higher price. If that happened to me, I think I would be seeing the gunsmith in small claims court. I have zero tolerance for bait-and-switch business practices, and that's what this appears to be.

I have zero tolerance for trial by social media (or forum). I'm not questioning Geezerbiker's integrity.
I'm sympathetic to his situation.
But I have heard one side of the story and I'm not going to lynch the gunsmith based on that.

Clearly there was a gap in communication and expectations. It would not be unusual for both parties to share responsibility.

I was not there.and I do not know Geezerbiker.

I'm leaving it open.

I think if it went to small claims Judge Judy,she would ask for documentation. Proof. If there is none there, What does Judge Judy do?

If three people witness a car wreck,the investigating officer will get three different good faith,honest reports. DIFFERENT reports.

A good faith,honest telephone conversation from a year ago likely has at least two interpretations.

As was suggested by someone,document prices and expectations via e-mail.

I'm playing devils advocate,not attacking Geezerbiker.

If,after a year,the Smith picks up the job and gets it done,he will have to make decisions. Time playing phone tag costs money. The lathe is set up to cut threads.

The smith has to be turning and burning.

I suspect doing a nice job of opening a barrel channel (rather than using a chain saw) and doing some bedding took at least twice as long as you were billed for.

He might have bought the thread protector. Or he might have turned it,knurled it,bored it,and single point threaded it.Then blued it.That way it matched the rifle.
You see,if you are not personally experienced at making a thread protector,its not right for you to assume what goes into making one. (Its just an example.Maybe the smith did buy a $15 thread protector. We don't know. But don;t assume.)

And Ive learned that if I use the garbage Chinese cold rolled from the local steel supply,thin wall parts are easy to split. I'd buy seamless drawn over mandrel aircraft tubing for stock.

I'm just suggesting both parties may have a legit untold story.

 

[FrankenMauser]

I don't think the quoted price is out of line. But I can't see the image (if there is one?), so I don't know if you are all referencing another amount.

The details of the job matter, too.
For example, contouring a blank costs a lot more than just threading a pre-contoured barrel.


This is, roughly, the price you pay if you want to play with custom work in today's world.

I have a special project with a local gunsmith right now. Seems simple, "put this barrel into that hole" with no cutting, crowning, contouring, bluing, etc. Just stab this tube into that receiver.
But it's far from it.
To get barrel A into slot B, there is unsoldering necessary, lathe work, mill work, single-point threading, barrel timing, re-chambering, resoldering, and more mill work to do.
I was quoted "five hundred, minimum."
I'm expecting a bill for about $800, any day now.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I have zero tolerance for trial by social media (or forum). I'm not questioning Geezerbiker's integrity.
I'm sympathetic to his situation.
But I have heard one side of the story and I'm not going to lynch the gunsmith based on that.

Clearly there was a gap in communication and expectations. It would not be unusual for both parties to share responsibility.

This is why I asked if Geezerbiker received a quotation or an estimate. He responded that he received a "bid."

Words have meaning. I'm an architect by profession, and in my world we use all three of those terms.

A "quotation" is when you go to one vendor/contractor to request a price, and he gives you a fixed price to perform the specified work. You know up front what the cost will be.

An "estimate" is when a vendor or contractors (one, or multiple) either don't know how much time or material will be required to do what you want, so the best they can do is give you a guess. What FrankenMauser received, in my world, would not be called a "quotation," it would be an "estimate." With an estimate, you don't know until you receive the bill what the final cost will be.

A "bid" is when you provide detailed specifications of the work to multiple vendors/contractors and they each submit a "bid." Bids, in general, are for a fixed price, sometimes with alternate add-on prices for optional scope of work (such as relieving the barrel channel while replacing the barrel). With a bid you also know up front what the final price will be.

I don't think the quoted price is out of line. But I can't see the image (if there is one?), so I don't know if you are all referencing another amount.
...
I was quoted "five hundred, minimum."
I'm expecting a bill for about $800, any day now.

When you say you don't think the quoted price was out of line, are you referring to the initial quote of $550 + $50, or the invoiced amount of $650 + $100?

But I still don't think the issue is the value of the work. The issue is that the gunsmith apparently gave one price, then charged a much higher price AND performed (and billed for) work that was not ordered or authorized.