Reason for BC and FOID cards

K

kmw1954

New member
https://news.yahoo.com/man-accidentally-shot-dead-own-200629127.html

Originally reported from the Chicago Sun-Times. The passenger in a car shoots his driver in the head during the commission of a Drive By Shooting.

The Shooter is a convicted Felon on parole. The driver was able to drive 2 miles after being struck in the head at close range by a 40 S&W.

So did the shooter have an Illinois FIOD card and is the 40 S&W an adequate self defense caliber if the driver can still drive 2 miles after being shot in the head?
 
I would like to see some detailed analysis on where the shooter got his pistol and his training.

Seems like this is more evidence that FOID cards only limit middle class workers from buying guns while criminals buy/sell at will.

Then you have to ask.....since both sides see this, what is the real purpose of slowing/limiting the purchase of guns by middle class people?
 
first off I think this one falls under "play stupid games, win stupid prizes".
generally ordinary street crime, even though firearms are involved is not considered "firearms related" for purposes of this forum.

So, I don't expect this one to stay open long, though there are a couple of points raised that can be addressed.

First,
Notice the article didn’t list No FOID as a charge.
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and, you won't.

As a convicted felon, not only can he not obtain an FOID, he cannot be charged with failing to have one. It's a 5th Amendment issue. He CAN be charged with felon in possession of a gun, but cannot be charged with failing to register a gun he illegally possesses.

Second,
I would like to see some detailed analysis on where the shooter got his pistol and his training.
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I don't really see where it matters, UNLESS he beat the system by buying the gun "legally" and not getting caught. I would expect the gun to have been stolen (at some point), and illegally sold or gifted to the convicted felon.

As to training, again, I would expect his training consisted of various movies and video's he watched, and perhaps someone showing him how to load the gun. If his "training" included not shooting your driver in the head, he apparently failed to learn that part...:rolleyes:

I would point out that the descriptive phrases used in the report may not convey all the facts. "shot in the head" can be anything from a flesh wound to instantly fatal. "Driving for 2 miles" might just mean the car traveled two miles with him still behind the wheel...

Clearly the wound was eventually fatal, though not instantly so. This is in no way the "fault" of the .40 caliber round, but the result of other factors, including, I think, the aim of the shooter.
 
On a positive note.......at least the bullet didn't end up in the head of an innocent victim. Maybe I'm callous, but I almost feel the victim got what he deserved.

As for the OP's original question......BCs and FOID cards are an attempt by some to keep guns off the streets and away from dangerous felons/criminals. The amount of success is highly debated and impossible to judge.

....and the 40cal is definitely enough for SD/HD.
 
Members, I am only about an hour of so away from this neighborhood and see these stories all the time of the carnage and wasteful loss of life. Yes including the sad criminals that perpetuate this.

Basically 2 reasons I posted this story. One to show the ironic silliness that these gang members follow and that somehow I find sickly funny. Second to show and to think that this incident will again bolster the gun control crowd and give reason to their feelings that all guns are evil and we need more laws.. Yet their silly laws and regulations still did not keep a gun out of the hands of a convicted criminal.

Though it will increase the total number of gun deaths by 2. Even though this was done during a criminal act.

As to where he obtained the gun my opinion is an issue and it does matter. The gun control crowd always tries to raise the point and address the gun purchase issue with their Gun Loophole narrative yet they consistently fail to address these illegal guns and the gun black market. As long as the criminals have a free and open exchange of illegal guns nothing in the city of Chicago will ever change.

A year or so a go there was a big story on the news for about a week about a railyard in Chicago that regularly had rail cars stopped there over night and many of these cars had firearms in them that were being commercially shipped. The story let out how these rail cars were routinely being burglarized and nothing was being done to stop it.
 
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buck460XVR is was trying to be facetious with the 40 cal comment but I guess I wasn't very successful.

I understand and have commented myself at how resilient the human body can be when one person will arrive at the ER with a Bowie knife imbedded in their skull and survive yet another will have fallen off a 2' step ladder and arrive DOA.

But also some of that I believe would be the same question an uneducated or uninformed person may react with upon reading that story. How could one be shot in the head with a 40 cal. and still survive to drive 2 miles. Same reason that a plane can crash and kill all onboard but one. Why would that one survive? Luck? Placement on the plane? It was a Tuesday?
 
kmw1954 said:
buck460XVR is was trying to be facetious with the 40 cal comment but I guess I wasn't very successful.
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That's why sometimes these online discussions get twisted around and folks get unnecessarily bent out of shape. Hard to tell sometimes where folks are coming from and if they are making a joke or dead serious. On other online forums it is etiquette to post a smiley at the end of the post to kinda give others a hint of where you are at. I'm a firm believer that any question is not a dumb question as long as it is asked with earnest and a desire to gain insight. One reason I frequent these forums is to glean knowledge from others that had avoided me in the past.

As for the obtaining of the gun, as I said, whether or not there is any impact at all on criminals by tightening the rules about lawful access is a debate that will go on forever. Similar to the "war on drugs" in this country. Everyone and everything has it's price and until the price is too steep when it comes to illegal gun possession, it will continue. The perp in this story already has a history of violent acts with a firearm. IMHO, he should have never been let out or prison so soon. Also IMHO, if the person is ever found that sold/gave the gun to the perp, he too, should be charged with the same crimes as the perp, and then some.
 
I concur and the debate will continue as to where do we draw the line with a persons civil rights, right to self protection and in relation to publics right to safety. I doubt there will ever be agreement on that.
 
Though it will increase the total number of gun deaths by 2. Even though this was done during a criminal act.
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And, some will count the death of the 22yr old as "death of a child due to a handgun".

As long as the criminals have a free and open exchange of illegal guns nothing in the city of Chicago will ever change.
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I think this probably represents the feelings of as lot of people, on both side of the issue, but, I don't think it is actually accurate. Over time, things will change. From what I can see, things have changed, and not for the better.

The St. Valentine's Day Massacre was so horrific and shocking it not only made national news, it made the history books. Seven (7) people were shot to death, and all were gangsters (no innocent bystanders were shot). Huge, shocking news, the level of violence...then.

Today, in Chicago, 7 people shot and killed is...Tuesday...:rolleyes:
(sarcasm intentional)

Criminals in Capone's era had MORE access to guns than they do today. They had "free and open exchange of LEGAL guns." In 1929 there was no law making a convicted felon a prohibited person for life, or even, at all. ANYONE with the money could walk into a store, plunk down the cash and walk out with any kind of firearm, INCLUDING Tommyguns (full auto submachine guns), and the only paperwork involved was the sales receipt.

Yet more people (and by percentages not just number totals) are shot and killed today than were then. SOMETHING has changed, lots of somethings, actually, but I don't think that gun control is the "controlling" factor. If you think it is, then explain how, over the past 90+ years, the gun control that is claimed to reduce/prevent "gun violence" has actually brought us MORE gun violence.

Hard to tell sometimes where folks are coming from and if they are making a joke or dead serious. On other online forums it is etiquette to post a smiley at the end of the post to kinda give others a hint of where you are at.
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we do it here, too. IF people bother to use them. :D

Also IMHO, if the person is ever found that sold/gave the gun to the perp, he too, should be charged with the same crimes as the perp, and then some.
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I understand the sentiment, but disagree with the particulars. Especially when the sentiment leads to laws where people who have their guns STOLEN are being held accountable for any crimes committed with the stolen gun(s). this HAS happened. Such a law exists in my state, but has not yet been enforced (90% of the state's sheriffs have stated they won't enforce it) and is being challenged in court …

I don't think that KNOWINGLY providing a firearm to a felon should put one facing the same charges as the felon. I'd be ok with charging the illegal gun supplier with accessory to the crime, but not the crime, itself. And, I'm totally fine with making the penalty for supplying the gun illegally equal to the penalty for what ever crime(s) the felon commits with it.

Consider what the effect might be, if instead of facing a few years jail for breaking a firearms law (illegally providing a gun) the criminal dealer faced the same 20-to life sentence the robber he armed does. Might not make any real difference I suppose, other than driving up the price of the illegal gun..:rolleyes:

Guns, drugs, liquor, or light bulbs, as long as people want, and will pay for any banned or restricted thing, there will be an illegal market, and no government anywhere, ever, has been able to stop that. The most vigorous enforcement and the harshest punishments have never stopped it. They may drive it further underground, may reduce it in scale, or degree, but it is always there, until the demand goes away.
 
44AMP, thank you for the conversation. I believe we see many things the same way, though maybe expressed differently.

Agreed that the death will also be counted as a minor because it's been proven to be that way before.

Chicago has always been a violent town in some areas. If not for the criminal elements then because of the political and yes, the Union elements. It's how Richard J Daley obtained and maintained his power.

Lastly, here in Wisconsin the term and charge is "Party to". It does carry the same weight of conviction as the actual charge. For instance a person standing as a look-out or the driver is charged the same by being "a Party to the crime".

Now when my wife read the story all she could do was shake her head, chuckle and ask "how could anyone be so stupid."
 
Now when my wife read the story all she could do was shake her head, chuckle and ask "how could anyone be so stupid."
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This is an example of what President Bill Clinton used to tout as "common sense gun control".
On the surface - stupid crap like FOID cards and background checks make the ignorant masses feel all warm and fuzzy.
In reality, those things are just meaninlesss gestures & yes, sheer stupidity.
 
44 AMP said:
I understand the sentiment, but disagree with the particulars. Especially when the sentiment leads to laws where people who have their guns STOLEN are being held accountable for any crimes committed with the stolen gun(s). this HAS happened. Such a law exists in my state, but has not yet been enforced (90% of the state's sheriffs have stated they won't enforce it) and is being challenged in court …

I don't think that KNOWINGLY providing a firearm to a felon should put one facing the same charges as the felon. I'd be ok with charging the illegal gun supplier with accessory to the crime, but not the crime, itself. And, I'm totally fine with making the penalty for supplying the gun illegally equal to the penalty for what ever crime(s) the felon commits with it.
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I didn't make my statement about stolen guns.....only guns that were knowingly given or sold to a known felon. I'm going out on a limb and assuming this was the case here since even FTF sales cannot be conducted in Illinois without a FOID card. Yes I know there "could" be other scenarios, but I doubt it.

Again, until the penalties(price) for those supplying firearms to those who are known to be prohibited increases, the supply to them will not stop. Just as penalties for those that commit crimes using a firearm need to be increased and those convicted of such crimes incarcerated longer to keep them off the streets and away from the general public. Jail, for the most part does not "reform or rehabilitate" violent criminals, it just exposes them to other criminals and hardens them. Releasing a young punk back to the streets with a violent history and no other attributes going for him and what do folks expect to happen?

We don't need more or harsher laws for firearms and law abiding citizens, we need more and harsher laws for those folks that use firearms to commit crimes. Period.
 
"...being shot in the head..." There's data from W.W. II that shows the survival rate of head shots was far higher than that of torso wounds. Don't remember who did the study. Didn't see it recently.
Anyway, an Illinois FIOD card has nothing to do with criminals. Criminals don't get permits, take CCW courses, comply with mag capacity laws, etc., etc. An Illinois FOID card and any such thing anywhere else is about the assorted politicians looking like they're doing something about crime by pestering the law abiding. It's been going on up here since 1978 and before. We even went as far as paying our cops 100 grand per annum(London's Police budget is 100 million dollars Cdn. with 93.3% going directly to payroll. 2015 population of 383,822.) and we still have crimes involving firearms. Usually drug related.
 
I got to thinking, about how this actually could have happened, beyond the obvious "shooter error".

The report implies it was an actual "drive by" meaning the shooting car slowed but didn't stop. SO, the shooter from the passenger seat was focused trying to stay on target as he moved past, and this carried the driver into the line of fire.

It is also quite possible that the shooter was shooting "gangsta style" with the gun held sideways. Right handed shooter from the passenger seat, shooting to the left, with the gun held sideways (to the left), recoil could very well have moved the gun into line with the driver's head.

Personally, I'd like to see this guy locked up for the rest of his time on Earth, and I'd be happier if that time was shorter than natural causes. But, it is Chicago, so that's not likely to happen.
 
Would this incident fall under the Laws of Karma?

One last comment from me. I am still disturbed by what appears to be the number of ordinary people just going nuts these days.
 
I got to thinking, about how this actually could have happened, beyond the obvious "shooter error".

The report implies it was an actual "drive by" meaning the shooting car slowed but didn't stop.
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In the video - the shooter appears to be in the back seat, right behind the driver. The shooter appears to be going after a group on some steps in front of an apartment (?) on the passenger side of the vehicle.

Instead of shooting out the passenger side window, the shooter sticks his arm out the window of the rear driver's side and reaches across the top of the vehicle in order to shoot.

What probably happened is he pulled the trigger while fooling around trying to get the gun out the window and reach over the top of the car with it.

It's extremely awkward. Go back and view the video of the incident.
 
With everything that has happened over these past 4 or 5 days every where I turn I see "Gun Violence". So many different ways it is used.

Sorry but "Gun Violence" is a political talking expression. Because those that use it refuse to call it what it is. Homicide! Which is Committed by a person against another person.
 
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