Really weird grouping -- don't know what to make of it

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ezmiraldo

New member
Hey guys, I went to the range today to zero my rifle (savage 111 in 30-06). The first group (aiming at the center of red cross on the lower part of the picture) seemed OK, but for the second (aiming at the center of the black cross on the upper part of the picture) shots were all over the place.

I've shot from bench and sand socks, in perfect weather conditions.

What do you think? How could the spread have increased so much for the second group (top black cross)? What could have changed the relatively tight grouping on the bottom to a totally crappy group on the top? I'm totally confused by this...:confused:
 

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If you throw our the one shot on top, the group sizes are not materially different. The lower group looks tighter but you really have two clusters, the sizing is similar. The shot on top I would say was you, pulled, flinch, jerk .. Flyer aside you may have some parallax issues. I'm certainly no expert but the patterns would suggest to me that you are varying something repeatable. It may be the way you are looking through the scope.
 
I've checked parallax before shooting. I don't think I've developed "flinch" during the second group -- but I don't know for sure... Yes, I've let the barrel cool for about 5 mins between shots during the first group shots, and for 4 mins between each shot during the second group (the barrel was cold or slightly warm to the touch before each shot).

Thanks for your replies, guys!
 
I have ran into this problem before useing sand bags. I would shoot better lower on the target but poor at the top. I concluded that, beings that i had to mound the bag up, every time i shot i had to reposition the bag. That made for incosistant stock pressure and/or different possition on the stock. I found that i get muuuch better results, personaly, if i rest the stock on my hand and my hand on the bag. I still dont understand exactly how it helped but it did.
 
New barrel has sharp rifling. It probably just got fouled. get a good foaming copper cleaner. You may need to clean it more frequently until the bore smooths out some.
 
I think the support on the bag has merrit.

I keep mine just ahead of the front receiver screw and make sure is positioned there each time

On my reloads I have seen similar groups and concluded that i was not quite in the right COAL.

My take is the 30-06 seems to like a longer run to the rifling. .030 to .040

I will amend that, at least in my mil surplus guns
 
check all the basics... such as loose scope mount screws...loosening over a series of shots, etc.. As mentioned before, different pressure from sandbag under forend.
 
Don't fall into the trap of trusting a single 5 shot group. Shoot 10, five shot groups on the same type target to get a better idea of what is happening. 1stmar is correct, throw out one shot on the top group and you basically have identical groups, my best guess is this is a shooter issue.
 
Are you keeping your head down through the shot?

Try to resist the urge to pop your head up and look at the target over the scope .... when your head goes up, the stock goes down ...... muzzle goes up ...if you are antcipating the shot at all .....it'll happen before the bullet leaves the gun .....maybe before the trigger even breaks...... you have induced a vertical flinch...... stop "chicken necking"!

Strive to hold still and see the target through the scope during and after the shot ..... you will likely lose it during recoil, but if you hold still, maintain a good cheek weld and had a good NPOA, it'll come back into view ......
 
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Could just be the target.... Shape, and/or color(s).

If, for example, I shoot my AR with a red dot (with a 3 MoA dot) at a 3" black square at 75 yards, groups are 3-4 inches.
Yet, if I shoot at a 3" RED square at he same distance, the groups shrink to 1-1.75".

It's all in the way my eye sees the "interaction" between the reticle and target.


I have noticed similar situations with my rifles that have crosshair reticles, as well.
I shoot better at V, X, or square -type targets, than I do at crosses, circles, bullseyes, etc.
 
Thanks, fellas! Yes, the rifle was placed the same way (front resting on my backpack, back resting on a sand sock). I think I held my head down through the shot and through the follow-through -- but I can't be 100% sure. Will have to watch it next time. I agree the colors and shapes of the target might have something to do with it -- since this was the element that systematically varied between 1st and 2nd group (I'll have to check all the screws, first, though).

I agree that the maximum spread is relatively similar between two groups (if the top flier is ignored). But, the lower grouping is significantly tighter horizontally. As I look at the lower grouping, it seems I've nailed two shots -- dead center. But, jerked or anticipated recoil (in a very consistent manner) for the other 3 shots. This might have produced two tight clusters: one in the dead center, and another in the low/left. At least that's what normally happens when right-handed person shoots pistols -- jerking the trigger and anticipating recoil sends rounds low-left. Can this be what's going with the first (lower) two-cluster grouping?

I'll try to use your guys feedback to try and correct the issue(s) with the second grouping next time I'm at the range. Once again, THANK YOU all for helping me out with this!
 
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One 50-shot group is three times better than five 20-shot ones. Especially if you want to know how it shoots all the time that you can count on.

If the best accuracy of only a few shots is important, shoot that 50-shot group then measure the smallest 3-shot cluster of bullet holes. Use that number to tell folks how accurate it is. That's sort of the popular way to do it.
 
Yes, anticipating a rifle shot often means the shooter's pushing his shoulder into the rifle. Shots go to 7 and 8 o'clock for right hand folks. More often from offhand than rested positions.
 
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