Real Dilemma - H&K or Armalite? (1)

R

ronnerad

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Hi Everyone;

I have an AR10 {A4B} http://www.armalite.com/sales/catalog/rifles/ar10a4_spr.htm
It is a fine shooting rifle that exceeds the advertised accuracy by being able to routinely group under 1 MOA @ 100 yds from a sandbag rest. I have it outfitted with the Improved ArmaLite Scope Mount and a Springfield Armory 1st Gen Gov’t scope.

However, when recently visiting a friend’s gunshop in Cali, he showed me their H&K SR9TC.
http://www.hkpro.com/sr9.htm I was completely taken by the rifle. I will admit that a lot of it has to do with the looks. But I’ve done some research, and the SR9TC seems like it might be the better machine tool. Specifically because of the polygonal rifled barrel and the delayed roller locking system.

But I could modify my AR10 in a similar fashion. Armalite offers accessories - http://www.armalite.com/sales/catalog/components/custom.htm Like a tactical grip. I could also install a free-floating hand guard that would allow a bipod attachment - keeping stress away from the barrel, while offering a stable shooting platform.
 
Real Dilemma - H&K or Armalite? (2)

Here is my dilemma:

As I stated, my Armalite is a fine rifle. But the AR10 models have had their share of little problems. There have been some technical bulletins - http://www.armalite.com/library/techBulletins/techBulletinMain.htm and my bolt had to be sent back recently for a burr on the carrier key that developed a gas leak.
[a] Parts are only available through Armalite. If they go out of business, the repair parts market will dry up.

The SR9TC is considered a "Rolls Royce" and commands a staggering price of over $3000 or so dollars. But I have not heard any bad reports about reliability or accuracy. Just comments about:
[a]the weight
(b)no bolt hold-open after the last round, and
[c]that it’s too hard on brass. {not reloadable} but
[1] Parts seem available from a number of sources.

The question:

I just want 1 military styled 7.62mm rifle. I want repeatable MOA out to 400 yards. I want reliability.
Is the SR9TC costing almost twice as much as the AR10, that much better of a rifle?
I hoping to get some comments from people that have handled both to help me make a decision.

Thanks
 
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I'd go with a HK or similar over the AR-10. Specifically, I'd go with an Oberndorf HK-91. I don't believe the polygonal bore is worth another thousand dollars.

You have lots of parts and configurations that are possible with the -91 that are not open to you with the AR (tele stock/PSG-1 stock/MSG90 stock all changed with the push of 2 pins, not to mention forearms). You can buy a parts kit and have spares for a decent price (~$250). Right now, good HK G3 magazines can be had for under $10.
 
The polygonal barrels on the SR ARE worth the extra money. The poly barrels shoot cleaner, with a slightly higher velocity. Easier to clean, and much less prone to fouling (the bane of any precision rifle).

If I had the money/opportunity, I'd ditch the AR and get the SR. Also, get a better scope. Those Springfields are only hot when compared to Tascos and Simmons.
 
Oberndorf is the town, next to the Necktar river where the HK factory is located. I was simply trying to point him toward HK-style rifles actually made by HK in Germany, not a licensed version made elsewhere.
 
If you go for the HK because of all the preban accessories you can add, remember that if it didn't come with the accessory, ATF has prohibited adding them. Under ATF's regs, adding "assault features" to a preban receiver that didn't have them to begin with is the creation of a new assault weapon.
 
If you go for the HK because of all the preban accessories you can add, remember that if it didn't come with the accessory, ATF has prohibited adding them. Under ATF's regs, adding "assault features" to a preban receiver that didn't have them to begin with is the creation of a new assault weapon.


That's not quite correct. If a semiautomatic rifle was imported prior to the 89 import ban and had ANY feature that made it an "assault weapon" in the eyes of the ATF, then it is legal to add ANY OTHER FEATURE that would otherwise make it an "assault weapon."
For instance, if you buy a pre-89 AK47 with a full stock and a bayonet lug (the lug would make it an "assault weapon") it is perfectly legal to add a folding stock or flash supressor to the gun.
Or if you bought an HK91 that was imported prior to the 89 ban with a full stock and a flash supressor (which would make it an "assault weapon") you could legally add a collapsible stock to it.
As for the HK SR9T, I believe they were imported post 89, so you most likely can't add ANY "assault" feature to them.
 
First things first, SR9s are POST ban weapons, they temporarily got around the pistol grip ban for the Ts and TCs by some vague "sporting purpose" which was reversed before the entire run made it in country.

That said, I have a factory SR9T, same version but with the MSG90 adjustible stock instead of the PSG1 stock.

It shoots 10 shot groups under 1" at 100, and I DO RELOAD THE BRASS!

I have a freind who also has one and he says it will not shoot well.

I love my HK.
 
RikWriter, I originally thought the same thing but the official word from ATF is that if a preban didn't have a feature to begin with, you can't add it later. According to their regs and interpretation, if you add a prohibited feature to a weapon that originally did not have it, it's the manufacture of a prohibited assault weapon.

They also have ruled that if you modify a preban magazine so that it will not fit the original weapon but still holds more than 10 rounds, it counts as manufacture of a prohibited mag.
 
RikWriter, I originally thought the same thing but the official word from ATF is that if a preban didn't have a feature to begin with, you can't add it later. According to their regs and interpretation, if you add a prohibited feature to a weapon that originally did not have it, it's the manufacture of a prohibited assault weapon.


I would like to know from who and in what form you received this information. I am not going to tell you that you are personally wrong, but this sounds like someone who has misinterpreted the 922r rules---either someone in the ATF or someone else who read an ATF statement and misinterpreted it. I am very nearly 100% certain that my statement on this in my last post is correct.
 
ronnerad,

Welcome to TFL! I'd say you're over a barrel...'cuz I don't like either rifle! :D

Each "semiautomatic battle rifle" has its pros and cons. Personally, I would choose between the two popular .308's you didn't mention, the M1A and the FN-FAL. It sounds like the AR is already performing the task you've assigned it, but that you are concerned about potential reliability issues. (I can appreciate your concern; I'm selling my AR-15 for the same reason.)

This is a subject that has been much discussed in this forum. In a nutshell, there is no free lunch. The most reliable rifles are rarely the most accurate ones, and there are weight penalties attendant to autoloading precision rifles.

I do not like the HK 91 at all. I want my prejudice to be clear, but also be clear that it is based on the poor ergonomics and bulkiness of the platform. HK's ARE reliable. HK's ARE accurate.

I have decided to take another tack, which you might consider. I purchased a dedicated precision rifle, a HB bolt-action .300 WM. I plan on purchasing a dedicated "battle rifle", as well. In my case, it will be a FN/STG variant. In your case, you might think about trading for either an M1A or FN-FAL type, to give you a reliable piece with plenty of spare parts, and then match the battle rifle with a decent bolt-action- the Remington 700, of course, being the obvious choice. (This type of setup is coincidentally a common marksman/spotter combo.)

Just an alternative opinion to consider. Good luck, and have fun with your choice.
 
Spectre;

Actually, I had an M1A, with a Kreiger 1-10, custom built-up by Clint Fowler in Virginia. Nice rifle.

But unfortunately the M14 does not stay tuned w/o the services of a gunsmith. The reason the USMC pioneered the double-lugged receiver was to improve stability, and make the bedding last longer. Even so, the M14's need rebedding every so often, and the gas system is finicky.

When my accuracy began wandering with my M14, I came to the conclusion that I needed to step up to a gas gun recoil system required less tuning, and stayed put. Thus my move to the AR10.

Now the question is whether the H&K system is better than the AR system. From the posts here, I’m beginning to realize that I just might be better served to have a shop like JPAuto Rifle Specialties install a free-floating handguard and tune my AR10.

Maybe someone would like to list other gunsmiths that do good AR10 work.

Thanks!
 
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