Is it legal to or possible reactivate an old service rifle? The rifle is my great grandpas Remington 1917 30-06. The bolt and trigger seem to operate fine, cocks and fires, safety is good... The chamber is plugged or welded to deactivate it as a firearm. Was this done for some legal reason, could it be re barreled cleaned up and shot again?
Reactivating Rem 1917
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Is it legal to or possible reactivate an old service rifle?
Depends, it is possible and it has and is being done. Last week I was asked about the P14 DP and a few Rock Island 03s. The problem with restoring is the barrel. I have no problem using the actions for a build.
I have purchases as many a 4 complete rifles for $25.00 each that were sold as suspect. After test firing I found nothing suspect with the receivers.
F. Guffey
Depends, it is possible and it has and is being done. Last week I was asked about the P14 DP and a few Rock Island 03s. The problem with restoring is the barrel. I have no problem using the actions for a build.
I have purchases as many a 4 complete rifles for $25.00 each that were sold as suspect. After test firing I found nothing suspect with the receivers.
F. Guffey
It makes that noise, All of my rifles have killer firing pins.kilimanjaro
New member
It's perfectly legal, the receiver is the firearm. You can convert to calibers like 458 Magnum, the rifles are that stout. A new barrel should do the job, maybe reblue it for matching color.
Do have it inspected first, it may have just been a drill rifle in some high school many years ago, or it could have been deactivated for a safety reason.
Do have it inspected first, it may have just been a drill rifle in some high school many years ago, or it could have been deactivated for a safety reason.
This was most likely a "drill rifle" if the chamber is completely plugged. If this is correct, there may be other "de-mill" operations(spot welding barrel to receiver). Any restoration should be done by a knowledgeable gunsmith who understands what such operations may have done to the surrounding metal.
1917 rifles have a history of brittleness and should be treated with care-(IMHO based on having one blow up in my face).
Legally, there should be no problems(unless the rifle happened to be stolen from an American Legion post at some point).
1917 rifles have a history of brittleness and should be treated with care-(IMHO based on having one blow up in my face).
Legally, there should be no problems(unless the rifle happened to be stolen from an American Legion post at some point).
The story given to me was that this rifle was his service rifle. He was border patrol during ww1, couldn't enlist in regular army due to being first generation German American. When he was finished with his term the rifle was deactivated and he was allowed to bring it home. The rifle is in rough shape years of neglect. My original thought was to fix the furniture and lightly restore the metal finish and hang it on the wall. how cool would it be to actually shoot it.
kilimanjaro
New member
Functional 1917s run between $750 and $1,000, depending on condition. Even a restored rifle should fetch the lower end of the scale. A couple-three hundred into barrel and refinish is worth doing, especially if it's Granddads.
Border Patrol in 1917 meant keeping Pancho Villa from raiding across the border, as well as interdicting German agents and saboteurs targeting the Texas oil industry. US oil kept the Allies from defeat in March 1918, whe oil and gas stocks in Europe were enough to keep the armies mobile for only a week. Germany had an active program to immobilize the Allies and tie up US troops on the border. Mexico was promised the return of the southwest states if they joined the Central Powers and invaded, revelation of the Zimmerman plot led to US entry into the war. Several Mexican raids were purchased with German gold and arms.
So your GrandDad did more than sit stateside.
My Grandfather on mother's side was first-generation, too. He got sent to France and saw the elephant.
Border Patrol in 1917 meant keeping Pancho Villa from raiding across the border, as well as interdicting German agents and saboteurs targeting the Texas oil industry. US oil kept the Allies from defeat in March 1918, whe oil and gas stocks in Europe were enough to keep the armies mobile for only a week. Germany had an active program to immobilize the Allies and tie up US troops on the border. Mexico was promised the return of the southwest states if they joined the Central Powers and invaded, revelation of the Zimmerman plot led to US entry into the war. Several Mexican raids were purchased with German gold and arms.
So your GrandDad did more than sit stateside.
My Grandfather on mother's side was first-generation, too. He got sent to France and saw the elephant.
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kilimanjaro
New member
The rifles are good shooters, very enjoyable.
"...this rifle was his service rifle..." The troopies, even "border patrol" troopies were not allowed to keep their issued kit.
Whether or not it can be restored depends on how it was deactivated. If it just had the barrel/chamber welded shut, replacing the barrel will do it. If the receiver was also cut, it really cannot. Either way it needs a smithy who knows Pattern 17 rifles. Gunparts wants $119.60 for a barrel with no extractor or front sight cuts.
Whether or not it can be restored depends on how it was deactivated. If it just had the barrel/chamber welded shut, replacing the barrel will do it. If the receiver was also cut, it really cannot. Either way it needs a smithy who knows Pattern 17 rifles. Gunparts wants $119.60 for a barrel with no extractor or front sight cuts.
"...this rifle was his service rifle..." The troopies, even "border patrol" troopies were not allowed to keep their issued kit.
Not easy to get the time frame together. If we are talking about Poncho Villa the 30//40 Krag would be appropriate. The troops were given their rifles and swords etc. when they were released. Complete with paper work.
F. Guffey
Not easy to get the time frame together. If we are talking about Poncho Villa the 30//40 Krag would be appropriate. The troops were given their rifles and swords etc. when they were released. Complete with paper work.
F. Guffey
I also am inclined to think that the story has undergone some "embellishment" over the years. In the WWI era, discharged soldiers were not allowed to bring their rifles home; further, the M1917 would have been a new rifle at the time, with every one desperately needed in France, so it is very unlikely that one would have been issued to a border patrolman, then deactivated and given to him.
For some years between the wars the Army sold 1917's through the DCM at a very low price. These were often purchased for use by military academies, drill teams, and school/college honor guards and deactivated so they would not be a danger in the hands of the youngsters.
The barrel probably is not salvageable (it would depend on how the chamber was plugged), but the receiver should be OK unless the heat treatment was ruined by welding.
As to what would have been issued to such units, F. Guffey may be correct; Krags were plentiful at that time and while some were used in training, they were not usable by the AEF. (To set the time frame straight, Pancho Villa - real name José Doroteo Arango Arámbula - raided Columbus NM in March, 1916, long after the regular army was equipped with the M1903 Springfield, but two years before the M1917 came into being.)
Without getting into too much detail, in response to the Columbus raid, Wilson sent General Pershing and almost the whole U.S. Army on a wild goose chase through the mountains of Northern Mexico; they never got anywhere near Pancho Villa, but the "exercise" did provide some valuable training and lessons that helped when the U.S. became involved with a more formidable enemy in 1917. The Mexican expedition saw the first combat use by the U.S. Army of motor vehicles, aircraft, and field telephones, to name a few innovations.
Jim
For some years between the wars the Army sold 1917's through the DCM at a very low price. These were often purchased for use by military academies, drill teams, and school/college honor guards and deactivated so they would not be a danger in the hands of the youngsters.
The barrel probably is not salvageable (it would depend on how the chamber was plugged), but the receiver should be OK unless the heat treatment was ruined by welding.
As to what would have been issued to such units, F. Guffey may be correct; Krags were plentiful at that time and while some were used in training, they were not usable by the AEF. (To set the time frame straight, Pancho Villa - real name José Doroteo Arango Arámbula - raided Columbus NM in March, 1916, long after the regular army was equipped with the M1903 Springfield, but two years before the M1917 came into being.)
Without getting into too much detail, in response to the Columbus raid, Wilson sent General Pershing and almost the whole U.S. Army on a wild goose chase through the mountains of Northern Mexico; they never got anywhere near Pancho Villa, but the "exercise" did provide some valuable training and lessons that helped when the U.S. became involved with a more formidable enemy in 1917. The Mexican expedition saw the first combat use by the U.S. Army of motor vehicles, aircraft, and field telephones, to name a few innovations.
Jim
Thanks for the history lesson. It would seem the story I was given about the rifles history was not so accurate. I kind of figured as much knowing the source of the info. I've been looking around the web for the parts I know I need to replace (barrel, some furniture, gunsmith hours...), it would seem that I could buy a functional 1917 cheaper than restoring this one. It would still be a fun project to learn some things on. Guess Ill put her back in the closet and do some history home work so when I hand it down to my son it has a more accurate story.
" So their your great grand pappy was, 1000 angry Mexicans on the left flank and the Kaisers men on the right. He looked over at doc holiday from atop his trusty steed silver and said..."
Or maybe it was the Canadian border?
"From high atop babe the big blue ox he could see the maple syrup smugglers and the back bacon gang. With one shot from his trusty rem 1917, from 3000+ yrds ..."
" So their your great grand pappy was, 1000 angry Mexicans on the left flank and the Kaisers men on the right. He looked over at doc holiday from atop his trusty steed silver and said..."
Or maybe it was the Canadian border?
"From high atop babe the big blue ox he could see the maple syrup smugglers and the back bacon gang. With one shot from his trusty rem 1917, from 3000+ yrds ..."
Thanks for the history lesson. It would seem the story I was given about the rifles history was not so accurate. I kind of figured as much knowing the source of the info. I've been looking around the web for the parts I know I need to replace (barrel, some furniture, gunsmith hours...), it would seem that I could buy a functional 1917 cheaper than restoring this one. It would still be a fun project to learn some things on. Guess Ill put her back in the closet and do some history home work so when I hand it down to my son it has a more accurate story.
" So their your great grand pappy was, 1000 angry Mexicans on the left flank and the Kaisers men on the right. He looked over at doc holiday from atop his trusty steed silver and said..."
Or maybe it was the Canadian border?
"From high atop babe the big blue ox he could see the maple syrup smugglers and the back bacon gang. With one shot from his trusty rem 1917, from 3000+ yrds ..."
" So their your great grand pappy was, 1000 angry Mexicans on the left flank and the Kaisers men on the right. He looked over at doc holiday from atop his trusty steed silver and said..."
Or maybe it was the Canadian border?
"From high atop babe the big blue ox he could see the maple syrup smugglers and the back bacon gang. With one shot from his trusty rem 1917, from 3000+ yrds ..."
What may be in play here is a common occurrence in family legends. Basically, it goes like this:
Grandpa served in XXX War.
This is Grandpa's gun.
Therefore, this is the gun Grandpa carried in XXX War.
Grandpa may have bought the gun as surplus, or it might not even be a military gun, or it might even be from the wrong side of the war, but families often believe the simplest explanation to be true.
I was once told by the widow of a WWII veteran that the gun she was showing me was carried by her late husband on Omaha Beach on D-Day. I didn't say anything, but if the story was true, it was surely the only Model 1873 carbine on the beach that memorable day.
Jim
Grandpa served in XXX War.
This is Grandpa's gun.
Therefore, this is the gun Grandpa carried in XXX War.
Grandpa may have bought the gun as surplus, or it might not even be a military gun, or it might even be from the wrong side of the war, but families often believe the simplest explanation to be true.
I was once told by the widow of a WWII veteran that the gun she was showing me was carried by her late husband on Omaha Beach on D-Day. I didn't say anything, but if the story was true, it was surely the only Model 1873 carbine on the beach that memorable day.
Jim
Back in 1977 I purchased a 1917 Remington Endfield that was Sporterised to a 257 Roberts. The Smith that did the work was P.O. Akley. It was a good hunting rifle. I removed the William's peep sights and had my gunsmith drill and tap it. He had mentioned that the receiver was very hard. I believe the trigger was a two stage military. I replaced it with a Temley. Mr. Akley had replaced the barrel and gave it a new more modern stock that wasn't bad looking. The choice of 257 Roberts was a great move. I was never able to get it to shoot better then about 1 1/2" so I sold it. I believe I would have got more better grouping out of it if I didn't give up on it so easily. That was the only mistake I made with it as far as I am concerned.