Re-Furbish a Double Shotgun?

J

Joshua 2415

New member
I've always wanted a nice side-by-side shotgun, but haven't been able to afford the ones I like. I don't really know much about them, but I'm starting to learn. Now I'm thinking maybe I'll buy a used one, perhaps something that's a bit dinged up, and have the stocks refinished or replaced, and the barrel re-blued, etc.

Any suggestions on a company or person to speak with, who does this kind of work?

Also...and I know this might sound like heresy to some...but...does anybody put choke tubes on a side-by-side shotgun? Everything I've seen seems to come with one IC and the other Full, or some other variation. Why don't doubles have replaceable choke tubes, like semi-autos? If I find a used double that I like, can a gunsmith retro-fit it for choke tubes? My finished gun will be used mostly for upland hunting, dove hunting, and turkey.
 
I've always wanted a nice side-by-side shotgun, but haven't been able to afford the ones I like
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Yes, nice doubles are expensive. So are Ferraris, so most of drive what we can afford. If you want a nice side by side shotgun, save up and get one that's worth having. I see too many people who come into my shop with an old Belgian side by side that is a hundred years old and get upset when I tell them it would cost more to restore than the gun cost them. I do that kind of work, and rust bluing a shotgun can easily cost $300-$400, and another $200-$300 to refinish the wood and chase the checkering. So buy a nice one in good condition.

Briley will put choke tubes in your shotgun, but the tubes need to be a specific thickness in order to be machinable.
 
Thanks for the reply.

How will I know in advance if the barrels are thick enough for adding choke tubes? I wouldn't want to buy a double that couldn't have this done.

Can you tell just by knowing the brand/type of gun? One of the guns I'm thinking of is a Beretta Silver Hawk 470 or 471.
 
The best doubles, in my opinion, for the money, are LC Smith and Greener. I say this, over the barrels locking mechanism. They are pricy, but I've seen them sell for a decent and affordable price. I have an Elsie, as they call them, myself.

The thing you don't want, unless you intend to shoot black powder shells, are Damascus barrels. You want the later solid steel barrels. The first ones for LC Smith were called armor steel, and you'll find that stamped on top of the the water table, (The flat section the barrels rest on), when you break it open, and take the barrels off. It will also be on the flats under the barrels.

Water Table on an Astra, with stamps:

Astra_Flats_1.jpg


Copyright 2015, Shotgun World
 
The best investment you can make is a professional stockfitting. Properly restocking a double is a very expensive endeavor not to mention the wait. Once you know what stock dimensions you shoot best you can eliminate many guns that catch your eye.

A double is only as good as it's barrels, there are many beautiful guns out there with bad (insufficient wall thickness, deep pitting, cut, or loose ribs), most anything can be fixed but 4 digit repair bills and long waits are the rule rather than the exception.

My advice is do your research (doublegunshop is a good site) and look towards a modern SxS as your first before diving into a antique project gun.

It's an awful addiction to step into....

My long term (15 years) project gun nearing completion :rolleyes:

Good luck
 
I strongly recommend against firing a Damascus (twist) barrel shotgun even if only with black powder. Many of those guns were none too strong in the beginning and the corrosion and wear over a century has not made them any stronger.

As to chokes, most of those guns were made in a day when most shooting was done at flying game and very light barrels were considered best. That usually meant that the barrels were made very thin past the chamber with muzzles often not much thicker than cardboard. Installing an internal choke would be impossible. And the thin barrels also increase the potential for a blowup and loss of fingers or a hand.

Jim
 
Let me give you one more "problem" with buying old SxS guns with the idea of restoring them. The standard length of a shotgun shell at 2 3/4" didn't come around until sometime around WWII. Many old SxS shotguns have chambers with the now obsolete length of 2 1/2" or 2 5/8". Even if you get a modern 2 3/4" shell to fit into the chamber, there is not enough room left for it to fully open resulting in dangerously high pressures.

Some of those old guns have enough "meat" in the barrel to be rechambered to the modern length but many don't.

Now, if you are talking about restoring a Beretta Silver Hawk, then that is a modern design. In fact, unless you found one that had been abused I can't even imagine one of those needing to be restored.
 
Installing choke tubes requires the barrel to have a certain thickness. Too thin and you can't do it. A shotgun smith will have a tool to measure the thickness of the barrel walls.
 
2-3/4" shells are older than WWII (My 1931 LC Smith is 2-3/4"). Here is a quote from a history article on here, and a link to the thread and post.

In reviewing old Union Metallic Cartridge Co. catalogues and price lists, the first time I see mention of paper shotshell lengths is in 1895 where they offer 10-gauge shells in 2 5/8 and 2 7/8 inch lengths, 12-gauge shells in 2 5/8 or 2 3/4 inch lengths, while 16-gauge is just 2 9/16 inch and 20-gauge just 2 1/2 inch. In the September 1896 catalogue they offer 12-gauge paper "Smokeless" shell in lengths up to 3-inch. All brass 10- and 12-gauge NPEs were offered up to 3 1/4 inch length. By the April 1899 UMC Catalogue things are really taking off and they've added 2 3/4 and 2 7/8 inch lengths to both 16- and 20-gauge offerings, and the 3 1/4 inch 12-gauge length in their "Trap" shell. By the May 1900 UMC catalogue the 3-inch 16- and 20-gauge length is being offered in their salmon colored "Smokeless" shell and their green colored "Trap" shell.
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https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=533575
 
2-3/4" shells are older than WWII (My 1931 LC Smith is 2-3/4").
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Yes, 2 3/4" shells were produced long before WWII but that doesn't mean they were standard. Lots of pre-WWII shotguns had shorter chambers (not even counting the damascas barreled guns).
 
Short shells have been common in England and on the Continent for years, the reason shotgun proof marks often include the length of the shell for which the gun is made. The two most common in recent years are 65mm (2 1/2") and 70mm (2 3/4") in both 12 and 16 gauge

Jim
 
Jim, no, I wouldn't shoot todays black powder loads in anything but the later Damascus, or that which was made towards its end. They had developed the welding and forging better, then, and I have seen those shot successfully, with no damage. Then, I'd only shoot the lowest load. The earlier Damascus, I wouldn't trust. They're wall hangers.

Even though my Elsie is armor steel, I still shoot mild loads in it. It is worth too much to take a chance.
 
I ran across this LC Smith, which would be a good candidate for refinishing. One can see that someone has redone the wood, which will have to be fixed, with new flat checkering.

A good hot water blue for the barrels, and re-case harden the receiver, with the wood fixed, would up the value of this gun, plus you would have a good shooter, too. By its serial, it looks to be from 1926.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/HUNTER-ARMS-double-barrel-12ga-.cfm?gun_id=100555681
 
Good points, Dixie, but I don't like to make exceptions for two reasons. The first is that some folks will just assume that the Damascus gun they own is good; the second is that even a newer barrel can develop weakness due to internal corrosion that is not easily seen even in close inspection.

I once sectioned a nice looking English barrel (after it blew) and the metal looked like orange lace, it was so eaten away inside from thousands of firings driving corrosion into every seam. I once advised a customer not to shoot his old Damascus shotgun. He gave me the usual "my granddaddy shot it, my daddy shot it..." So he shot it - with 2 3/4 Magnums - and lost three fingers. At least he couldn't say he wasn't warned.

Jim
 
I got this Folsom Batavia Leader,it looks like a twisted barrel it is in very nice shape but for what I read it should not be shot.I'll just store it for posterity.
Thanks guys.
 
polyphemus,

I have seen some doubles, that had the Damascus barrels cut off at the chamber, on the barrel lump, with the chambers bored out to accept two modern barrels. Really, it according to how thick the original chamber walls are, in order to do this right, so it will hold the pressure. I've seen some that the chamber area was to thin, and they burst.

What they did, was turn the new barrels down, at their breech ends, with a turned length that would fit the bored out chambers of the lump, and then silver solder them in place, recut the rim and ejector recesses, and apply the ribs to the new barrels.

I don't know if one could do this to a L C Smith, or a Baker, as the chamber walls are pretty thin. One would have to find a gun with a thick chamber wall, to successfully do it.
 
Appreciate the response,Ireally do.It is a 12ga. double but the craftsmanship
required to modernize it is beyond my limits and may not be worth the effort
anyway it has to be close to ninety years old and may be more of a learning
project than a shooting one.thanks again
 
While I have seen some Damascus barrels let go at the chamber, it is more common for them to let go forward of the chamber. The reason is that in an era of plentiful passenger pigeons and no limits on waterfowl and upland game, shotguns were made for wing shooting, and a "whippy" feeling was highly prized. That meant thin barrels, as far back as possible.

The problem is in the pressure curves of black and smokeless powder. Black powder burns rapidly and its high pressure peak is almost all in the chamber area. But smokeless is progressive burning, and keeps its pressure on several inches out to the point where the barrels get thin (and where the shooter's off hand is). That is why even weak barrels will sometimes stand up to black powder loads, but not to smokeless powder. It is not only the actual pressure, but where that pressure is being applied.

Jim
 
I have seen some doubles, that had the Damascus barrels cut off at the chamber, on the barrel lump, with the chambers bored out to accept two modern barrels. Really, it according to how thick the original chamber walls are, in order to do this right, so it will hold the pressure. I've seen some that the chamber area was to thin, and they burst.

What they did, was turn the new barrels down, at their breech ends, with a turned length that would fit the bored out chambers of the lump, and then silver solder them in place, recut the rim and ejector recesses, and apply the ribs to the new barrels.
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The process is called "sleeving" Kirk Merrington has sleeved two guns for me including the gun pictured above. He welds the tubes making it very difficult to impossible to see the seam.

:cool:
 
I have several damascus shotguns and have shot many of them for years with BP loads. I once owned a damascus percussion shotgun made by Deane Adams & Deane which was one of the finest guns of its period, my budget does not allow me to purchase a new Purdey or Holland & Holland but I can buy a lot of quality for the money when looking at pre 1900 shotguns. Of course the decision of whether to shoot them or not must ultimately rest on you and should only be made after lots of research and having the said gun inspected by someone knowledgeable in that field. The only 100% safe approach is to hang it on the wall and even than it could still fall off and hit your toes.:D
 
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