Rapid Fire?

Webleymkv

New member
For those who frequent ranges with rules against rapid fire, does the range generally specify exactly what constitutes "rapid fire" or is it normally considered to be understood? The reason I ask is because I got kicked out of a local range this past weekend for "rapid fire".

The range I normally go to was renovated this past year and several new rules were added after the renovation. This is a public range run by the DNR in a state fish and wildlife area. One of the new rules is "no rapid fire" but nowhere on any of the posted signs nor the check-in cards is "rapid fire" defined.

This past Saturday, I was at this range with a friend of mine and, as we were getting ready to pack up, I decided to do some DA shooting with my S&W 629. While I wasn't intentionally shooting slowly, I wasn't particularly trying to shoot quickly either: just firing as I brought the gun down out of recoil and realigned my sights. If I had to guess, I'd say there was probably slightly less than one second between shots as that's really all the faster I can shoot accurately with the ammunition I was using without the recoil becoming uncomfortable (Remington 180 gr .44 Magnum JSP). After firing a cylinder full of ammo, I was approached by a DNR employee and informed that what I was doing was "rapid fire of that weapon" and that it was "time for me to pack up and leave". I didn't argue the point as I was close to being done anyway and, honestly, I was rather irritated and didn't want to say something I'd regret.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more disgusted I am. My friend agreed that I wasn't shooting all that "rapidly" and I kind of feel that if a range in going to arbitrarily kick people out over a single infraction without so much as a warning, the rules should at least be clearly defined. Really, I don't think I'd be so angry if the RO had simply told me to slow down or given me some sort of warning. Being arbitrarily kicked out over what I feel is a vague and poorly written rule, however, just rubs me entirely the wrong way.

What's particularly annoying to me is that the same employee didn't seem to care about other violations of the rules such as a large group of people (8-10) crowded at one station (the rules state no more than four people at a single station at a time) nor a young boy who was muzzle sweeping half the range every time he reloaded his single-shot .22 rifle.

I'm really considering finding a different range now as this is kind of the straw that broke the camel's back for me with this facility (It's a somewhat long drive, the road up to it is nearly impassable after it rains, it's a lot more crowded than it used to be, and there's other silly rules now like banning shotguns). It's really a shame because it used to be a nice facility but over the last couple of years it's been ruined for me.

What does TFL think? Am I overreacting? Is there some sort of "range etiquette" regarding rapid fire that I'm unaware of? Or was this incident as big a load of malarkey as I'm perceiving it to be?
 
"Rapid fire", at the range I am a member of, is an insurance problem, and anything faster than a shot per second is considered rapid fire. But, they don't use timers so it is arbitrary and different between RO's.:confused:
 
Rapid fire could mean anything. I'm a member of three ranges, and they all have various versions of rapid fire, some allowed, some not allowed.

Range 1. No rapid fire allowed. Double tap is OK, but there must be a 2 second break in between each double tap. Otherwise, rapid fire is shooting so fast that the shooter can not reasonably control the gun in between shots.

Range 2. Rapid fire is allowed. Uncontrolled rapid fire is not. Uncontrolled rapid fire is defined as shooting so quickly that the shooter can not control the direction of the muzzle, thereby causing rounds to go into the ground or over the berms.

Range 3. Rapid fire is ok in tactical bays, so long as shooter maintains control. In group shooting areas, rapid fire must not endanger other shooters.

There is another range in town that says there must be a one second break in between shots. I hate that range and any such ranges. If I wanted to shoot at a muzzleloader pace, I'd buy myself a musket.
 
You would have been kicked out of the range where I shoot, too. Their definition of rapid fire is less than two seconds (or maybe it's three) between shots. They will make an exception for customers who have demonstrated proficiency to practice double taps, but that's it. Three shots in rapid fire and you're gone. They give ONE warning.

I have no problem with that. It's astonishing how badly some people shoot and how dangerous some people can be.
 
The "no rapid fire" rule at ranges is one of the rules I can't stand; but I still try to be polite about this - it's their range, not mine. I don't like to rely on written rules so I always ask the RO (or whoever is in charge of the range) the following questions in this regard:

"Do you allow rapid fire?"
"No"
"What do you consider to be rapid fire?"
"Generally, one second between shots"
"What about an occasional double-tap?"
"No, not allowed...."

- its here that I'm looking for a little between-the-lines information. What I really want to know is if, after shooting for a while to show that I follow range rules and am not some kind of yahoo, whether I can get away with .5 second shots, or perhaps the rare double-tap. It really depends on how the dialogue goes from there. If I sense that the RO is a real hard-butt about enforcing rules, I might shorten it up to .5 second intervals between shots, but that's about as far as I'll go. I have never received a warning with about .5 sec intervals, so long as its limited to 3-4 shots or so.
 
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guess they don't run IDPA there ever.

classifier, stage one, string one: draw fire two to body, one to head. three shots. i've done it in 2.7, shots on target. need to practice more. and that includes draw time.

like my range, no such BS.
 
I inquired at one of the ranges I visit how they define rapid fire. He stated that they want the shooters to be under control and obviously aiming each shot and not just randomly pulling the trigger as fast as they can. While the definition is still a little vague I do understand what they are looking for.
 
Rapid fire at the local ranges that don't allow it is clearly defined as shots per second.
The ranges that do allow it, of course, have no opinion on the subject.
The very nice outdoor range I prefer has a 1 rd per sec rule.
To still get decent practice I use five small targets on a single backing at 25 yards, and rotate shots around them.
Since that takes about one sec per shot, it's not bad.
Fortunately, there's also two indoor ranges that don't care.
So I go there to practice rapid fire.
Life is good.
 
The range where I work defines it as "More than one shot in two seconds".
There are signs posted which clearly state "NO RAPID FIRE Two seconds between rounds".
You get one warning.
 
I can understand the commercial range operators being afraid of "rapid fire".
All you have to do is look at the bullet pocks in floor, walls, ceiling, and support columns of any indoor range or the gashes in the turf of outdoor ranges to have little respect for the ability and intelligence of the average shooter.
Not everybody is an action shooter with the skill to handle rapid fire as required by IPSC, IDPA, and Three Gun. But a lot of us are and we need our practice. Heck, NRA Rapid Fire of 5 rounds in 10 seconds is more than some of these outfits will allow.
 
Weblymkv - If possible...make an appeal to the range rules committee.

Our range at AGC at Marriottsville, requires that all shots be aimed shots that impact the backstop berm; regardless of time between shots --- which also means --- no shooting from the hip.
 
Willikers..I do the same thing! The range I go to had a 1 second per shot rule. I put 6 of the reactive sticker targets up and switch targets for every shot. I still have to slow myself down a little.
For a while they switched it to 2-3 seconds per shot. Someone must have complained. Just recently they took out the specification and only said "No Rapid Fire".
 
Thank goodness neither the indoor range nor the outdoor range I belong to have such a rule. At the indoor range, which is also open to the public, I routinely practice slip hammering my SA revolvers. 5 rounds in about 2 seconds. Lanes next to me and down the line, lots of ARs, 9mm, .40s, etc, firing away as fast as they please. I've never seen anybody misbehaving or losing control of their muzzle. Most of the AR shooters are shooting from a bench rest anyway.

At the outdoor (members only) club, there are no ROs. Each member becomes the RO when you are the first to open that particular range. Being members only, it's a very comfortable and friendly place to shoot, not to mention it's on 300 acres with over a dozen different ranges of various types. And it's 7 miles from my house...:D
 
The TWRA public range in my neck of the woods is the same. Worse actually, ALL firearms must be fired from a rest. NO offhand shooting, even with handguns.

Went once. Won't go back. I shoot on a friend's private property now.
 
Weblymkv - If possible...make an appeal to the range rules committee.

There is no committee, the range is owned and run by the Indiana Department of Natural Resources.

Honestly, just having a rule against rapid fire isn't what bothers me so much, I understand that there are a lot of morons out there who can't control their guns. What irks me is being arbitrarily kicked out, without a warning, over a rule that isn't clearly defined. I was not intentionally breaking the rules and honestly, if the RO had given me a warning before kicking me out, I wouldn't have so much of a problem with it. I guess I just think that if you're going to ban something which you don't bother to clearly define, you should at least give people the courtesy of a warning before handing out infractions over it.

While I did go off on a bit of a rant, my main purpose in starting the thread was to find out is there was some sort of unwritten or understood definition of what constitutes "rapid fire," but it sounds like most ranges which ban it also clearly define it.
 
I've never figured out what rapid fire constitutes.

I would assume in a common sense approach; that it would be a suscession of shots with a fast enough frequency to inhibit proper aiming of each one.

But who knows... Some can shoot quick and accurately
 
Wembley, does everybody have to play by the same rules?

Ranges have their rules for different reasons.

I have been to ranges where some shooters get to shoot faster, smaller or larger caliber, or from different shooting positions, or from a holster draw:mad: than the rest of the crowd. I won't go to those ranges unless there is some reason that there is no other option.

Keep in mind that the RO's are employees. They are following their employer's wishes in the way they do their job, at least in the irritating situations that I witnessed.
 
All it takes is one careless, irresponsible person to ruin it.
Our former club used to not have any rules about rapid fire at all.
I used to very much enjoy setting up courses of fire and do run n' gun stuff.
Someone decided to see how fast they could shoot their new auto loader rifle.
They sent a bunch of rounds way over the sides of the range and out into fishing territory.
That was the end of freedom at that club.
It must be my bad luck.
A second range got closed down completely when another guy doing similar things managed to hit a house 1/4 mile away.
So, it's understandable how these kinds of rules come about.
i just wish these danged idjits would do their foolishness somewhere I ain't.
 
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