DarthVader
New member
Can someone rank these calibers according to knockdown power? Also, what is the definition of knockdown power; I assume it is getting the biggest grain bullet to move the fastest?
Thanks!
DV
Thanks!
DV
Rank the Power: 44 Mag, 45 ACP, 50 AE
- Thread starter DarthVader
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SigP6Carry
New member
I would assume it's .45acp < .50AE < .44 Magnum based on maximum bullet weight vs. velocity.
Technically, none of the above.
None have actual "knock down power" in that the bullet physically striking a person will not cause them to fly backwards. Heck, on an episode of Mythbusters, it was demonstrated that even the vaunted .50 BMG cartridge at a range of a few yards does not have actual "knock down power". So knock down power is really nothing more than a myth perpetuated by hollywood.
In terms of power, .50AE and .44 Mag are pretty far beyond .45 ACP. All 3 will work fine on 2 legged critters, assuming good shot placement. But as always, a direct COM hit with a .32 will beat a shot in the arm with a .44 any day.
None have actual "knock down power" in that the bullet physically striking a person will not cause them to fly backwards. Heck, on an episode of Mythbusters, it was demonstrated that even the vaunted .50 BMG cartridge at a range of a few yards does not have actual "knock down power". So knock down power is really nothing more than a myth perpetuated by hollywood.
In terms of power, .50AE and .44 Mag are pretty far beyond .45 ACP. All 3 will work fine on 2 legged critters, assuming good shot placement. But as always, a direct COM hit with a .32 will beat a shot in the arm with a .44 any day.
SigP6Carry
New member
JAD, I think you're taking it too a far to a literal point. I'm simply factoring in the weight of the projectile and the velocity with which they travel, without factoring in anything else. If we're talking "takedown power" I'd assume all three would preform identically in real world situations, only .45acp would be an easier round to control in follow up shots.
Whenever people talk about round's "stopping power" and "power" in general, I jump right to numbers, because real world statistics are obviously lacking for more calibers and are fairly subjective.
Whenever people talk about round's "stopping power" and "power" in general, I jump right to numbers, because real world statistics are obviously lacking for more calibers and are fairly subjective.
The maximum weight generally-available bullet for the .44 Magnum is 300 grains and the nominal bullet weight for the .50 AE is 325 grains or more. You really have to do things right to get that .44 Mag bullet up to around 1200 fps, but the .50 AE bullet will cruise easily at 1300 to 1400 fps. So I think the order would be: 45 ACP -- .44 Magnum -- .50 AE.
SigP6Carry
New member
Mal H, didn't know that. I thought that .44 was faster than a .50. I retract my prior statements.
DarthVader
New member
I was just having a friendly argument with a buddy; I thought it would go 50 AE (most powerful), 44 Mag, and 45 ACP (least powerful).
DV
DV
bdb benzino
New member
I would have assumed the same thing. I did'nt know the 50AE was that fast
. Thanks for the info!
. Thanks for the info!Here is what I found on wikipedia. The foot pounds of energy generated by the bullets is probably the only thing that could be considered "knockdown" power imo.
.50AE - 300 gr (19 g) JHP 1,550 ft/s (470 m/s) 1,600 ft·lbf (2,200 J)
.44 Magnum - 340 gr (22 g) LFN +P+ 1,478 ft/s (450 m/s) 1,649 ft·lbf (2,236 J)
.45 ACP - 200 gr (13 g) Speer Gold Dot JHP +P 1,080 ft/s (330 m/s) 518 ft·lbf (702 J)
So it seems to me that .45 ACP is not even in the same class as .44 magnum/.50AE which perform nearly the same with the right ammo.
.50AE - 300 gr (19 g) JHP 1,550 ft/s (470 m/s) 1,600 ft·lbf (2,200 J)
.44 Magnum - 340 gr (22 g) LFN +P+ 1,478 ft/s (450 m/s) 1,649 ft·lbf (2,236 J)
.45 ACP - 200 gr (13 g) Speer Gold Dot JHP +P 1,080 ft/s (330 m/s) 518 ft·lbf (702 J)
So it seems to me that .45 ACP is not even in the same class as .44 magnum/.50AE which perform nearly the same with the right ammo.
I guess it all depends on the definition of "knockdown".
Considering that a .44 mag or a .50 AE is usually associated with much larger and more dangerous critters than homo-erectus, . . . I would be very tempted to call the .45 ACP the one with the most "knockdown" power, . . . IF IT IS to be used for sd or hd.
Most ammo purchased for the .45 was manufactured with the human torso in mind, . . . and the massive over power of the other two I would think would not lend themselves well to doing much more than punching a very neat and clean .44 inch or .5 inch diameter wound canal through the target person.
OTOH, . . . the .45 ACP has a long track record of massive wound canals, massive tissue destruction, and a much lesser propensity to having an exit wound.
This is of course all unscientific, . . . dependant upon the makeup of the body of the bg, . . . and the ability of the shooter to hit the bg.
As it has been already stated, . . . accuracy is what counts.
May God bless,
Dwight
Considering that a .44 mag or a .50 AE is usually associated with much larger and more dangerous critters than homo-erectus, . . . I would be very tempted to call the .45 ACP the one with the most "knockdown" power, . . . IF IT IS to be used for sd or hd.
Most ammo purchased for the .45 was manufactured with the human torso in mind, . . . and the massive over power of the other two I would think would not lend themselves well to doing much more than punching a very neat and clean .44 inch or .5 inch diameter wound canal through the target person.
OTOH, . . . the .45 ACP has a long track record of massive wound canals, massive tissue destruction, and a much lesser propensity to having an exit wound.
This is of course all unscientific, . . . dependant upon the makeup of the body of the bg, . . . and the ability of the shooter to hit the bg.
As it has been already stated, . . . accuracy is what counts.
May God bless,
Dwight
knight0334
New member
There are too many factors and variables to figure in "power" vs. "stopping power".
One must also figure in that if all that energy and momentum isn't transferred to the target that it goes wasted and unused via the bullet passing through. There can be situations where a much lesser cartridge/bullet will cause a "stop" before a more powerful cartridge because it stopped in the target transferring more energy and causing more trauma than a wizzbang loudenboomer slug that passed right through.
Figure the energy of the bullet as it hits the target via it's velocity and weight, then subtract the energy of the bullet right as it exits the target. The difference is what transferred to the target. That difference matters a great deal. Then you also have to figure that a bigger hole bleeds out faster, whether it be made by a bigger bullet or a smaller one that opened up. Then figure in individual bullets damaging capabilites(mushrooming, fragmenting, etc,etc).
One must also figure in that if all that energy and momentum isn't transferred to the target that it goes wasted and unused via the bullet passing through. There can be situations where a much lesser cartridge/bullet will cause a "stop" before a more powerful cartridge because it stopped in the target transferring more energy and causing more trauma than a wizzbang loudenboomer slug that passed right through.
Figure the energy of the bullet as it hits the target via it's velocity and weight, then subtract the energy of the bullet right as it exits the target. The difference is what transferred to the target. That difference matters a great deal. Then you also have to figure that a bigger hole bleeds out faster, whether it be made by a bigger bullet or a smaller one that opened up. Then figure in individual bullets damaging capabilites(mushrooming, fragmenting, etc,etc).
Homo erectus?
Please everyone, refrain from shooting Homo erectus with any cartridge. Those fossils are between 1.8 and 3 million years old. Unless you've somehow found an extant population of H. erectus, in which case let me know and we'll turn the scientific world on its ear. However we do have billions of Homo sapiens roaming the Earth, which you should also refrain from shooting in most cases. The upright man made his exit long befor the "wise" man made his entrance.
Please everyone, refrain from shooting Homo erectus with any cartridge. Those fossils are between 1.8 and 3 million years old. Unless you've somehow found an extant population of H. erectus, in which case let me know and we'll turn the scientific world on its ear. However we do have billions of Homo sapiens roaming the Earth, which you should also refrain from shooting in most cases. The upright man made his exit long befor the "wise" man made his entrance.
azredhawk44
Moderator
This is best calculated by the "Taylor Knockout Factor."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Knockout_Value
A 300gr .44 (.429) bullet at 1300fps has a TKF of 23.90.
A 230gr .451 (.45) bullet at 850fps has a TKF of 12.60.
A 325gr .500 (.50) bullet at 1400fps has a TKF of 32.50.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Knockout_Value
A 300gr .44 (.429) bullet at 1300fps has a TKF of 23.90.
A 230gr .451 (.45) bullet at 850fps has a TKF of 12.60.
A 325gr .500 (.50) bullet at 1400fps has a TKF of 32.50.
Lots of variables. Comparing bullets of similar section density (325gr .50 vs. 240gr .44) they are similar in velocity. The advantage goes to the .50 simply because it makes a bigger hole. However, cast bullets are available up to 355gr (Beartooth) in the .44 and those can be pushed to 1100-1200fps (26 TKO factor) and that my friends, is an unstoppable penetrator. Can't find anything for the .50 heavier than 340gr. (at 1500fps in an FA 555 for a 32 TKO) and a standard 300gr .44 has a higher sectional density than that. Don't know what else folks are doing with their FA .50's but based on what I have the .50 would be more effective on thin-skinned game but the .44Mag holds the advantage with heavy bullets when extreme penetration is needed.
The .50 will score higher on the TKO scale but the 320-355gr .44 will still penetrate better.
The .50 will score higher on the TKO scale but the 320-355gr .44 will still penetrate better.
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9mm & .45 Fan
New member
50 AE > .44 Magnum > .45 ACP.
"Knockdown power" is a myth. No handgun round, from .22 LR up to .500 S&W Magnum, has enough energy to actually knock a person down.
"Knockdown power" is a myth. No handgun round, from .22 LR up to .500 S&W Magnum, has enough energy to actually knock a person down.
And just to stir the pot a bit....
The velocity figures quoted from Wiki are not safely achievable in all guns in the listed calibers.
And, Taylor's "knock out factor" is a totally arbitrary system, developed for rifles!
There is no system that can take in all the potential variables (particularly the variable of state of mind of the person getting shot), and the "best" systems yet devised simply give a relative ranking based on observed results, dressed up in the technical terms of bullet weight, velocity, momentum, and often some other arbitrary factors as well. Some methods of comparison even use a factor for the shape of the bullet.
There is no magic bullet. No magic caliber. People (and animals) have been stopped cold with a single shot from the puniest of calibers. They have also taken hits from the largest, most powerful rounds without immediate effect.
For energy (the most common method of comparison) your ranking would be .45ACP, .44Mag, .50AE. For effectiveness, it gets a lot more complicated. If X is an effective stop, X times 2 isn't any more effective. Stopped is stopped. Dead is dead. Nothing gets more stopped or more dead from being hit with a bigger round.
However, no matter what kinds of theories yo want to use to explain it, the real world observed results are ....
The velocity figures quoted from Wiki are not safely achievable in all guns in the listed calibers.
And, Taylor's "knock out factor" is a totally arbitrary system, developed for rifles!
There is no system that can take in all the potential variables (particularly the variable of state of mind of the person getting shot), and the "best" systems yet devised simply give a relative ranking based on observed results, dressed up in the technical terms of bullet weight, velocity, momentum, and often some other arbitrary factors as well. Some methods of comparison even use a factor for the shape of the bullet.
There is no magic bullet. No magic caliber. People (and animals) have been stopped cold with a single shot from the puniest of calibers. They have also taken hits from the largest, most powerful rounds without immediate effect.
For energy (the most common method of comparison) your ranking would be .45ACP, .44Mag, .50AE. For effectiveness, it gets a lot more complicated. If X is an effective stop, X times 2 isn't any more effective. Stopped is stopped. Dead is dead. Nothing gets more stopped or more dead from being hit with a bigger round.
However, no matter what kinds of theories yo want to use to explain it, the real world observed results are ....
22-rimfire
New member
Years ago this was a big discussion point in magazines. If you could actually carry a Desert Eagle in 50 AE, the argument might have some common sense merit. But for most people the 357 with 125 gr HP is the proven two legged one shot stop bullet and caliber combo which exceeds the 45ACP by most accounts.
Since I prize my ear drums (even in crisis), I go with a 38spl+P or 40 S&W for my chosen self defense choice. For the sake of the thread: 9mm < 40 S&W <45ACP < 357 mag <44mag <50AE with the 9mm and 38spl about equal. Just my opinion.
Since I prize my ear drums (even in crisis), I go with a 38spl+P or 40 S&W for my chosen self defense choice. For the sake of the thread: 9mm < 40 S&W <45ACP < 357 mag <44mag <50AE with the 9mm and 38spl about equal. Just my opinion.
