Range Report: Irritations and acceptance

J

jmstr

New member
Hello,

Met some friends at the range for a revolver day, where we shared and compared, with different ammo options as well, to see what we liked best.

The upshot: The GP100 revolvers [4" and 6"] fired everything first time in DA mode or SA mode. And this was with lighter trigger return spring and lighter hammer/main spring installed [Not sure if he said it was the 11 or 12lb hammer spring].

The S&W Model 10 only misfired once.

The Colt Officer's Model Target and the S&W K38 Masterpiece, 586 and 686 misfired 3-4 times.

The Colt Model 357 misfired 8-9 times.


The worst ammo for issues with primer ignition was Armscorp, which accounted for a failure to fire/misfire in all of those that had an issue.

However those that misfired multiple times did so with at least one other ammo, if not two other ammo selections.


My understanding is that all of the colts and S&W revolvers had had work done to 'slick up' the interior, but that they were using factory hammer springs. The Colt OMT was not touched by the previous or current owner, while the Model 357 had a trigger job done on it, but still has ignition issues.


From what I saw today, if I had to grab a revolver for defense, I think I'd trust the GP100 to save me first.

Yes, the others had 'better' triggers- smoother and/or lighter. Yet, if they can't ignite every round in DA useage, I can't rely upon them to save my wife or my life.


Costly day. Total of 9 boxes of ammo used, at current prices in California of around $35 each.

But, it was FUN!!!


oh- .44mag was fired also, but only two revolvers and only one brand of ammo. No issues with ignition in the .44mag.
 
I run 12lb main springs in my GP100 and both of my Security Sixes and have never had a misfire in DA. I’ve also polished the internals and installed shims from Trigger Shims.com. All three of the Rugers far and away have better DA and equal SA triggers than all but one of my Smiths. My 4” Model 57 has a fairly decent DA pull but a better SA pull than any of my pistols.
 
Can't blame the guns if they were modified. It is possible Armscore used rifle primers as a substitute to put out pistol ammo because of the shortages. Rifle primers will cause a lot more light strike problems than pistol primers for handguns.
 
My understanding is that all of the colts and S&W revolvers had had work done to 'slick up' the interior, but that they were using factory hammer springs. The Colt OMT was not touched by the previous or current owner, while the Model 357 had a trigger job done on it, but still has ignition issues.
Click to expand...

Misfires and "work done" make me doubt that the mainsprings were left stock.
First, are the S&W strain screws all the way in? If so, do they show signs of having been shortened? Do the springs have a groove in them?

Are the upper legs of the Colt V springs straight or do they have a downward bend in the middle?
 
+1

What he said! Sounds to me like "slicked up" resulted in screwed up. Check the tweaks Jim mentioned. There is no reason whatsoever to tolerate a quality revolver like those mentioned that will not ignite a round......everytime.

I suppose there is always the chance that the Armscorp ammo was wonky, but light hammer strikes are my first suspect.
 
Armscorp is right next Winchester White Box on the crappy ammo scale. I’ve had nothing but problems with it. When I complained to them about it they sent me replacement ammo which also failed.
 
You can encounter misfires in any pistol, the nice thing about a double action revolver is just pull the trigger again and odds are pretty good it will go bang. Not quite as simple with a semi auto, especially a single action. I know some semi auto’s do offer a second strike capability but that’s still not the same thing as getting a whole new round with the pull of a trigger.
 
Thanks for the comments everyone!

On the S&W revolvers-we checked the strain screws and they were all bottomed out. On the two that were mine I had replaced the screws with new ones and only polished the tip- no shortening.

On my S&W revolvers [Model 10 and 686+], I am pretty sure the mainsprings are original. I had tried the lighter weight ones from Wolff but swapped back as they had more problems. I will have to ask the other guys about theirs.


On the Colts, I don't know about the spring on the OMT. I can check the model 357 though.

However, I am not sure if you are referring to the two 'hooks' at the tip of the longer side of the spring as being bent, or are asking if the entire spring length on each side is bent.

I know they are not a truly straight side per each part of the 'v', as they do have a bend in them.
 
First step in evaluating gun performance is using ammo of proven quality and reliability. Armscorp doesn't fit the bill, for me.

Next is guns that have been worked on, or had springs replaced. When this is done, its flip a coin time, maybe its an improvement, maybe its not.

Very often the things done to improve the trigger pull reduce the reliability.

Some guns got worked on so much they would only run ammo with Federal brand primers (the most sensitive, generally speaking).

Ok for a target gun, not so much for a general use or defensive use gun.
 
I’ve never had a stock S&W or Colt DA revolver fail to fire factory ammo. The ammo would be Win, Rem & Federal. I never buy bargain ammo. I did have trouble with a few tuned K frame 357s with CCI primers and some French 9mm that had hard primers.
 
Besides Armscor, what other brands of ammunition did you use? Which of the other brands had the least and most misfires?
 
I’ve been thinking about this and realized I’ve never had a misfire in any of my revolvers and I think in the case of all my S&W’s it may be because they are all old enough that the firing pin is integral with the hammer.
 
Another possibility with the S&W revolvers is that the mainsprings may be original but modified. At one time before reduced power springs we're commonly available it was a somewhat common practice to remove material from the sides of the mainspring to reduce its tension. Were the guns mine, I would replace the mainsprings with new factory ones or aftermarket ones of factory weight and see if the problem persists.
 
As far as I'm concerned, the ONLY time it is allowable to sacrifice reliability for a better "feel" or accuracy is if there is zero chance that the gun will be used for self defense. I also include hunting guns in this.

Assuming the fault is not the ammunition (and it usually IS the ammunition) failure to fire on a target range only means no points scored, and at worst, might cost you the match. No big deal, its only a game. The same failure to fire when defending against man or beast, is a completely different matter, and could, in worst case, result in you to paying the ultimate price.

A gun is not necessarily flawed if it fails to work 100&% of the time with 100% of the crap ammo you can stuff in it. Oftimes it is the ammo that is the issue.

But when a gun fails to deliver over a wide range of commonly available and proven quality ammo, then, the gun has issues and needs work (and testing after repair) before I would consider it trustworthy.
 
For what it's worth. My 2 Rugers, GP-100 4" barrel and a GP-100 match champion both guns have the 8 and 10 lb springs in them and they both will shoot factory ammo. Winchester, Federal
 
Armscor ammunition has developed a bad reputation for miss-firing.
It seems to not want to work at all in the new Colt revolvers.

A valid technique for lightening an older model Colt revolver is to put a rod between the "legs" of the mainspring and cock the hammer.
This puts a slight downward bend in the upper leg and lightens the pull.

However, way too many people hear about this and don't pay attention to the part about using a trigger spring gauge to measure the pull and prevent going too low.
They also use too big a rod and over bend the spring.
This usually presents as a revolver that's reliable in single action but miss-fires in double action.

Properly done it's done using a trigger gauge and starts with small diameter rod stock and works up.
 
Originally posted by Dfariswheel
A valid technique for lightening an older model Colt revolver is to put a rod between the "legs" of the mainspring and cock the hammer.
This puts a slight downward bend in the upper leg and lightens the pull.

However, way too many people hear about this and don't pay attention to the part about using a trigger spring gauge to measure the pull and prevent going too low.
They also use too big a rod and over bend the spring.
This usually presents as a revolver that's reliable in single action but miss-fires in double action.
Click to expand...

This can be particularly problematic because not only does it render the revolver unreliable, but also quite difficult to repair as replacement mainsprings for these older model Colt revolvers have become very difficult to find.
 
Hi All.

Getting tired, but just logged in so here is more info.

In .38special:
Blazer 158gr
Federal 158gr
Winchester white box
Speer wadcutters [probably from 80s?]
HGM 158gr 'FBI Loads' [LSWC-HP]
Armscorp 158gr.


In .357
PMC 158gr
Fiocchi 142gr truncated cone
Speer 125gr Lawman ammo
Armscorp 158gr.
MagTech 158gr lrn.
S&B 158gr
Winchester white box
Remington


The model 357 choked the most on Armscorp 357 [2 out of 6 would ignite first time around. Second time, usually all would ignite.]

However, it wasn't happy with S&B, Remington or PMC either. To be honest, I can't remember it going through an entire cylinder of any of them without one failure to fire, in .357 or .38.

Interestingly, the 586 and 686+ also didn't care for Armscorp. They also had a failure to fire with at least one other brand each, but weirdly had no failure to fire with a fresh cylinder full of the same brand- usually.

The .38 OMT ignited .38special more reliably than the Model 357, but not as well as the 1950s S&W K38, or the more modern S&W revolvers.



My [tired] recollection is that those revolvers that had a ignition issue didn't have a single brand of ammo that they 'liked' enough to recognize as such.

It was more about fewest ignition issues.


Again, the S&W Model 10 and the Ruger GP100s were the most reliable. Oh, and the S&W Model 19 PPC revolver was VERY reliable with all .38special loads as well. As it has a PPC barrel, I will never fire .357 ammo through it- despite it being a Model 19.









A
 
My S&W revolvers - whether RF or CF, have never failed with factory or my handloads to fire. Now, did some brands of RF need to be turned a little to fire on a second try? Yep - but that would hold true no matter the gun, as it was the ammo.
 
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