Range Estimation Vs. Locality. Oh My!

M

MAD DOG

New member
It has been a long time since I have hunted outside of the "normal" western states, and moseyed (mosied?) on over to Texas.
They say things are bigger there, but it is a matter of scale more than anything.

I found myself having problems estimating ranges, something I am normally very good at.
The problem stemmed from the local flora being of different sizes from similar species here when full grown, no mountains to speak of to gauge distance, and game of indeterminate and varying size. It was also foggy, which really put the kibosh on reality.
I finally hit on the idea of using cows as range estimate guides, as they are pretty much the same size everywhere, even in Texas.
When no cows were readily apparent, I had to wing it on my guesstimations. I also used the three minute dot in my Aimpoint like a Mil dot to gauge range, but not knowing how big some things actually were, often all I could do was guess a little closer.
Fortunately, Ashley had a laser rangefinder, so I could correct my estimates if he was near.
The thing I am trying to get across here is that when you are in unfamiliar terrain, your ability to estimate sizes and ranges can be a little or a lot out of whack. This is more pronounced in natural settings, where the practice of man is less apparent.
There are no cars, windows, walls, or other unnatural but averagely sized objects.
I think it would pay off to do as much practice before actually hunting in the new terrain before attempting to shoot at unknown distances where bullet drop or rise may have an adverse impact on your impacts.
In the meantime, I will continue to zero at 200 yds, and shoot point of aim/point of impact out to whatever appears to be about that far...
And oh yes, I am gonna get me one of them new fangled laser thangs.
 
Mad, them lazer thangs are great! Took a shot on a cotton picker "with the lazer thang" and figured our nearest cross road was 785 yds away. Knowing this, when Bob comes past the light pole near the intersection cold brew is 1 min. and 14 secs. away! BUT if you have a great shooting spot you can get a pretty good idea of how far that bend in the woods is as well. IMHO Hank
 
Mad Dog,

Every duplex scope ever made has a range finder built into it.
Lemme splain. Say you're hunting deer with a 30.06. You're zeroed so that you are a little high at 100 yards dead on at 200 yards, a little low at 300 yards - 300 yards would be your Maximum Point Blank Range - anything within 300 yards you merely have to put your cross hairs on and without holding high or low just shoot and its dead meat (assuming you have no significant crosswind).
Read this carefully cuz it'll sound complicated because its difficult for me to articulate buts its really very easy and simple in practice.
A deers chest just behind the forelegs is 18 inches high from top to bottom (a doe may be 16 a big muley may go 20 but 95% fall right there at 18 inches).
So, knowing this, you put an 18 inch object out at 300 yards and turn the knob on your variable scope until that object is bracketed perfectly between the horizontal cross hair and the fat part of the vertical cross hair. When its bracketed perfectly, you check the setting. I think most 3x9 scopes will bracket 18 inches at about 6 power - you need to check where your scope brackets, it may be at 5 1/2 or 7 - whatever.
An elks chest measures 24 inches - check again for the correct setting when hunting elk.
Now, whether you're hunting coyotes or peccaries or hogs or whatever you you can use a tape measure to find a vertical or horizontal measurement for each animal that applies to the Maximum Point Blank Range for YOUR rifle.

Use the force Luke!


.



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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Keith-
I think you missed Mad dog's point. He was referring to the fact that he was in strange country without known references in vegetation or geology.

As I was there with him, I can attest to the fact that he knows how to do the formulas.
Rich
 
I know all there is to know about range estimation: I'm usually wrong.

I held one foot over a whitetail buck one time, figuring 400 yards, and hit him in the toe.

I held barely over a mule deer's neck, one time, figuring 250 yards or so, and shot over him.

I go to my bench rest, look at the measured 100-yard back stop. I imagine football fields. I try to apply all that out in the boonies.

I'm just real glad Mr. Bushnell came up with the 800-yard laser range-finder...

And Mad Dog is definitely correct.
 
Keith,
I am well aware of the ranging abilities of duplex reticles, mil dots, Aimpoint three minute dots, and the like.
They only work IF you have a known size referrent out in front of you.
The point I was trying to make is that in abscence of known size referrents, you are about S.O.L. if you do not have a paralax rangefinder or a laser to do it for you.

The pigs we were hunting varied dramatically in size, they were all shootable, and they had no distinguishing adult or sexual characteristics.
Imagine your self in a field of human enemies of various heights, from Pygmy all the way up to Karreem proportions, all with identical physiques, and all with identical uniforms. They are interspersed among various and sundry rocks with no average size, plants of various species with no average size, and the terrain is partially obscured by fog. Terrain features are irregular as well. Apparrently small swells in the fog turn out to be ridges about a mile distant, and evidently big humps end up being little more than swells in the ground right in front of you.
Add intermittent drizzle, strong winds, and cold to the equation.
Now try to estimate range without a laser or parralax rangefinder.
Good luck.
 
Speaking of rangefinder scopes in strange territory, the Army had trouble with the first rangefinder sniper scopes they sent to Vietnam.

After a lot of meetings and discussion, the maker said that "of course" they had set the stadia lines based on the average 6 foot tall man. An old sergeant said, "I think I know the problem."

Jim
 
Mad Dog,

Yes, I see your problem. I've never hunted pigs. I'm a deer and caribou type guy.
Those animals are consistent enough that with a little practice you can know whether they are inside your MPB range.
I'm not one to shoot at animals beyond that range. Too many variables when you try and estimate bullet drop and especially wind. A 3 mph east wind on this side of a canyon may be a 10 mph west wind on the other.
Ethics (my ethics) dictate that you shoot game animals only when your odds are near 100% - to me, with my rifle, thats 300 yards.
I've stretched that to 500 and even 600 yards with a hot little rifle I had a few years ago. You get lucky a couple times and think you're hot **** and then you take off a front leg and realize that you're not hunting anymore, you're target shooting.

I'd love to get a hot varmint rifle and try some long range coyote or other critter shooting down your way some time. That would be a blast! Don't have much in the way of nuisance animals around here.



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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Shoot the cows indeed!!

Kieth,

Not sure where you are hunting, but I have some concerns about the 18" rule... I've hunted whitetail from Texas to Vermont and shot a lot of different sized deer. While I admit I have never measured that part of their anatomy.. and I have heard the 18" rule before... I find it hard to believe that this would be consistent enough to range accurately outside of 250 or 300 yards. AS noted above, you can basically set your rifle up to shoot close enough to point of aim within that distance so that no ranging is necessary.


If you ask me, without known referrences, lasers are the way to go. I'm going to pick one up this summer, now that the prices are reasonable.

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-Essayons
 
Rob,

You're losing me. or I'm losing you - the 18" rule is only to determine if a deer is WITHIN 300 yards. I wouldn't shoot a game animal beyond that range.
I would not use such a rough calibration to determine say, that an animal is at 500 yards and I need to hold 30 inches high or something. I just want to know thats its 300 yards or closer - if its near the end of that 300 yard range I might hold on the upper half of the chest or something but thats as far as I'd push it on a game animal.
My hunting is mostly here on Kodiak Island in Alaska for blacktail deer with a yearly trip to the mainland for a caribou or two.

Just my opinion but if you can determine that an animal is within 300 yards (and you can) with a duplex reticle then why waste hundreds of bucks on a gadget that will only tell you that its at 275 yards rather 290? It makes no difference whether your bullet hits an inch higher or lower in its lungs.

And also, no gadget will determine wind and thats far more critical to long distance shooting than distance. If a man can't get closer than 250 or 300 yards to a game animal then he should take up golf or something....maybe tennis... Heck, you owe it to the animal to get close enough to get a clean shot.


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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan



[This message has been edited by Keith Rogan (edited May 04, 1999).]
 
I understand your point about getting close enough for a clean kill, but you can certainly get a clean kill at beyond 300 yards, if you know your gun and your range/wind.

I wasn't questioning your use of the 18" rule, I was questioning the validity of the 18" rule in the first place.

Someone remind me next fall to measure deer. I just find it hard to believe that such a method can be used reliably. I think it is based on a fallacy, I could easily be wrong about this, but intuitively I have a hard tim e believing that deer are that consistently sized through the middle.
 
Rob,

I now see what you're saying - I have measured deer and the 18 inch chest is pretty standard. So, maybe a doe is 16 inches and a big buck is 20.
Remember, your ideal is to get as close as possible. If your deer appears to be a large buck and is right at that 300 yard bracket and you suspect he may be larger than standard, well just hold a little high on the chest, or better yet get a little closer.
Trust me, I'm no novice and this does work. What will really hose up long range (beyond 300 yard) shots is wind. You feel a gentle wind blowing from your left so you hold a little right and gut shoot some animal. That happens because in the 400 yards between you and the animal, the wind may be blowing stronger or even in the opposite direction.
250 or 300 yards in low wind conditions is a safe shot. Much beyond that and even a gentle wind will blow your round way off course.
I take as many as 20 deer a year under a subsistence license and I hunt in treeless mountain terrain or caribou in open tundra. I've taken those 500 yard bragging shots and nailed em dead - I've also taken long shots and crippled and gut-shot deer. It makes you sick when you do that and I've learned to hunt rather than shoot.

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Rich/Mad Dog, were you in LaSalle or Webb county?

Are you talking about......JAVELINA?!??!?

Your right. Those darn things vary in size, and unless one is an expert on those foul beasts, at extended ranges, (what I like)
it can be difficult to judge size.

I guess I'm a stubborn purist in some instances, but I still use the M1 MARK IV with Premier mil-dots on an M40-A1. I may break down and get a laser for those #%^%@W%$ pigs. I saw a videotape of my nephew, drilling a javelina with a 30.06 at 200 yards. He hit the pig with a WHACK, and the pig snorted, grunted, and trotted off into the tree line. Maybe a Barrett M82-A1 next time? I hate those pigs.......
 
David: Are you bad-mouthing javalulu? That's some of the finest eating there is! Yummy-tasty! Those little backstraps cook quickly while barbecuing the hams, and keep the cook pacified while slaving away over a hot pit!

What the hell, they make neat pets, for that matter...

They may not be the world's prettiest critter, and they're sorta smelly, but then I never met a source of bacon I'd wanna marry!

Ta, ta, Art
 
MAD DOG, I grant you that Texas is not your "normal" state.(lived and hunted there all my life) Texas wildlife and vegetation can vary drastically depending where you are in the state. Most of my hunting has been done in the central part of the state.(Abilene, Aspermont, Winters areas) However, another thing to keep in mind when hunting in Texas is that the two main types of vegetation, the Cedar and Mesquite, vary drastically in size due to their fast growing and reproduction cycle. You can hunt in a pasture which was rid of all vegetation 5 years ago and see mesquites and cedars ranging from 1 to 8 feet. So what I'm getting at here is that yes, it is very difficult to estimate ranges in this type of country. Then on top of that you add the extra difficulty of hogs (assuming their hogs, not javelina)and that makes the job of placing a shot even harder. I guess I'm at somewhat of an advantage having grown up in this area, it has finally come as second nature to estimate ranges around here. I have taken every type of animal in this area with a Model 700 BDL Remington Varmint(heavy barrel) chambered in .222. I am not bragging at all, I simply attribute this to the fact that I have grown up here and shot this rifle for many, many years. And also do all of my reloading.

The only really significant advice I can offer to you is the next time you are hunting in that type of situation take an extra day to walk out the area you are going to hunt. Just get to know the terrain, and if at all possible do your terrain scouting a month or so in advance so as not to spook your game animal.

As far as the 18" rule goes: it is very practical in many areas. However, there are some areas where this will leave you with an off placed shot. Many areas of Texas have been exposed to the accidental or intentional release of very large trophy white-tail bucks which has resulted in larger than average whitetails. Also while not as common ther is an increase of cross-bred whites and mulies in Texas, and thes are as you might guess larger than the average white-tail. I will not argue that the 18" rule is not reliable for a hit, the problem is that you may end up wounding your target and having to trail the animal for quite a ways, and once again depending on the Texas terrain that can be a difficult task. I have gotten in to the habit of taking white-tails with a shot to the head or neck with the .222. Granted I will not take this shot at more than 250 yards, but at least I know that either I will take the deer or completely miss. (except for extremely rare circumstances)

Next time your hunting hogs in Texas try it the way we hunt them. Go out in March when the wheat is up pretty tall but not producing seed yet. Go out at night with a spot light(this is legal) in the field and walk around without the light on. Walk around until you can hear the hogs, then shine the light and let all hell break loose. I do not recommend this for the weak at heart, but if your up to it it's a blast. Remember to take a sidearm you trust along with you, it is not uncommon to be charged by the hogs(especially boars) and you will be out of ammo before you know it. In my most recent hunt I had to bring my .357 into play, it took three well placed shots(and two misses) to down a 150lb sow.

Any way, back to the original subject. Just take some time to get out and learn the terrain and vegetation before you take your shot.

Good luck, and I hope everyone doesn't think I'm a backwards Texan because of this post.

Bob
 
My rule of thumb for hunting range estimation is: if it looks to far, it probably is.

I remember once on a beach on Admiralty Island in southeast Alaska, a few of us tried to visually estimate the range across the bay to a large brown bear. At that time I had been guiding in that area for 3 years, and the guide I work for was there, too. He had been guiding that area for about 10 years. The estimates varied from 650 to 800 yards. The actual range, found when we later measured it on a map, was around 3/4 of a mile, or over 1200 yards. Oops. The Mk I eyeball is simply not up to the task outside of a couple hundred yards.

It's not worth the chance of wounding a big game animal by taking long shots. I like Aagaard's method of sighting a hunting rifle no more than 3.5" high at 100 yards, which with any modern cartridge gives a MPBR out as far as we should be shooting at game. BTW, in my experience, most misses are over rather than under big game, from holding a little high on game that is closer than it appears. 4" high (sight-in) +4" high (hold-over) + 3" high (wobble)=big miss.
 
Ipecac,

Aren't you the guy from Cordova? I agree with you that the unaided eyeball is a terrible range estimator.
Its a freaking mystery to me how well you brown bear guys can judge sizes on those freaking animals! I can tell an adult from a juvenile or a adult dry sow from an adult boar but when the boars get into the 8 1/2 and greater class it just amazes me how well bear guides can judge the hide size so well.

A friend of a friend from the lower 48 just finished a hunt with Andy Runyon here on Kodiak. He judged a boar at "10'2 to 10'4" and the guy took it. 5 shots from a .375 H&H and several hours of skinning later it measures out at 10'4" - honest measurement, none of this to the vent business or splitting the lower lip or whatever they do.

The bear missed B&C but its still a wonderful trophy - I posted the pix at http://members.delphi.com/keithrogan I'd appreciate your input on that bear and any tips you can give me on judging sizes on brownies.


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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan



[This message has been edited by Keith Rogan (edited May 07, 1999).]
 
Keith,

"I'd love to get a hot varmint rifle and try some long range coyote or other critter shooting down your way some time."

Hey if you ever get down to the lower 48 let me know, we can go to South Dakota for some prime prarie dog shooting, I can supply the rifles just bring lots of .223 ammo. Them pesky critters might over run you if you run out of ammo. LOL



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John - NRA - Lifer
 
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