Rainier 115gr HP for serious use

R

random guy

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I recently got 500 of these because they were a good deal but the nose was actually "nicer" than I expected. They are plated bullets and bear a resemblence to my now old stash of Speer Gold Dots. GDs may have changed in the meantime?

Anyway, I'm not really expecting Gold Dot performance out of a 10 cent bullet but they beg to be shot into media. I used wet newsprint, soaked for about 19 hours. Gun was an M&P9 2.0 4.25" barrel.

The loads were:

A) 115 Rainier over a +P charge of Power pistol. chronoed at 1300 fps
B) 115 Rainier over a little less than Alliant's max. Probably about 1200 fps
C) 115 Fed. RTP white box FMJ chronoed at 1120 fps
D) 115 Speer Gold Dot over a +P charge of HS-6 (must have loaded these 20 years ago. sheesh) chronoed 1228 fps out of this pistol.

Rainier load A 4 rds. consistently went about 8" while losing a little weight.
Rainier B (slightly reduced) 2 rds. went about 10" while trauma to the media was pretty similar.
Load C Fed FMJ 1rd. zipped straight thru with little fanfare.
Load D 115 gr Gold Dot 1 rd. opened rapidly despite less fps than the Rainiers. Went about 6". Retained weight very well as Gold Dots do.

Others have reported no expansion with this same Rainier bullet. Could be variation in the bullets or lower velocity. While these are not first tier "wonder bullets", I was pleasantly surprised. They are very inexpensive and perform a lot like traditional non-premium HPs.

Recovered bullets:

http://s107.photobucket.com/user/hvap90/media/Shooting/Results 2.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
 
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In my experience wet newsprint is difficult to get consistent results from. I even tried counting layers of paper and measuring the amount of water but I could never get consistent results. That was when I did some research and found out about Fackler Boxes.
Using a Fackler Box I get good consistent results for both expansion and penetration to the nearest inch. I used it a lot in my earlier years testing hunting ammunition and my pistol ammo. When I get more active I may build another to retest the old and test the new.
 
Undoubtedly true that newsprint is not calibrated or really repeatable. That is the main reason that I fired some known quantities into the bundle along with the new bullets. I'm really comparing known bullets with the Rainiers and the Rainiers with each other. Just realized I've been mispelling Rainier...

One home tester shot the Rainiers into water jugs and for him they blew straight thru like FMJs. Really odd considering that water is known to be an extremely hard media which will expand just about any bullet.

But yeah, water should be repeatable and there must be a factor one can apply to predict performance in tissue.
 
These particular bullets at least left the barrel spotless as near as I can tell. No powder crud either. A credit to Power Pistol at high pressure.
 
Undoubtedly true that newsprint is not calibrated or really repeatable. That is the main reason that I fired some known quantities into the bundle along with the new bullets. I'm really comparing known bullets with the Rainiers and the Rainiers with each other. Just realized I've been mispelling Rainier...

One home tester shot the Rainiers into water jugs and for him they blew straight thru like FMJs. Really odd considering that water is known to be an extremely hard media which will expand just about any bullet.

But yeah, water should be repeatable and there must be a factor one can apply to predict performance in tissue.
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There is a relationship between water (in one gallon freezer bags) in a Fackler box and gelatin that is properly mixed but it is difficult to get any real hard determination that compares to actual living tissue. I tried to do that years ago and the best fit varied by about 50% as I recall. Expansion was close to the same as long as no bones were hit but penetration in tissue has some variables that I could not pin down.

The plastic jugs might be just hard enough to compress the plated nose before it hit the water. I have seen similar things happen with some clothing when bullets are fired through it. You usually find the bullet bent to one side and the HP is full of cloth.
 
Whoa...

Unrelated here but what year is that Mauser? I have a clone to it..... at least the stock

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The plastic jugs might be just hard enough to compress the plated nose before it hit the water. I have seen similar things happen with some clothing when bullets are fired through it.
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Yeah, kind of what I was thinking. The jugs are thick enough to have an effect.

He may have been using a weak load too. And while my bullets seem pretty soft, his may have been harder. These aren't marketed for SD and any QA testing is probably simple functioning and accuracy at most.
 
Unrelated here but what year is that Mauser? I have a clone to it..... at least the stock
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That is my Dad's Mauser. A local gunsmith did the barrel and metalwork (Douglas .270 barrel, Mark X action) and my Dad ordered the stock from Fajen or Bishop :confused: and did the finish in Tru-Oil. Nice wood.

It was built in the early 70s.
 
That's awesome!
My grandfather left me his 243. Built in the 50's (I think) his cousin built custom rifles for him. That rifle has me baffled. The barrel is completely shot out and has over .25" of bullet jump but still shoots under an inch with my coyote loads. You have to really cram the powder to it to get decent velocities, as with almost any shot out barrel
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Nice rifle! Great that it will still group with a bit of freebore. A rifle built with this kind of style would really set us back today.
 
About all wet newsprint does is "compare" bullets one to one on that particular day. That's how I use that media. You have a given performance bullet(like a Gold Dot) that you compare the other to in that lump of wet paper.
FWIW, I wouldn't depend on the plated bullets for SD. GoldDot in my choice and nothing less will do.
 
About all wet newsprint does is "compare" bullets one to one on that particular day. That's how I use that media.
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Agreed. It's not the tool for a comprehensive study but it serves a purpose within limits. Probably better than shooting old appliances.

FWIW, I wouldn't depend on the plated bullets for SD. GoldDot in my choice and nothing less will do.
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Of course the Gold Dots are plated as well but I know what you mean. They are very different. Rainier plating really behaves like a thin jacket, separating from the core in places on impact. The metallurgy and origami that goes into Gold Dots must really be something because they just don't do that.

I'm thinking that this Rainier or maybe their 124 gr. might be my bulk load though. Dirt cheap and similar in performance (I think) to run of the mill JHPs. From a 4" or longer barrel, I'll probably go with the lesser powder charge actually. 1200 fps seems good for them. I've probably been over driving the Gold Dots as well. Gold Dots for first line SD and this bulk load for any hypothetical long term crisis. It is absolutely better than FMJ in my obnoxious opinion. :D

For many years, a P-11 was my only 9mm and it wasn't a gun that I'd shoot a lot so I've never piled up much 9mm ammo. That has changed.
 
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I found the plated HP was inconsistent. Sometimes it would mush out (not what I'd call a mushroom) and the next bullet would simply make a hole w/o any deformation.
On steel plates, the plated (especially the plated HP) is much more shooter friendly than jacketed bullets from my observations. The plated bullets "washer" and slide off the plates rather than rebound.
 
Interesting you bring this up . I recently had bought 1500 147gr Rainier plated HP and worked up some pretty accurate loads. I then got to thinking how reliable there expansion is so I emailed rainier and asked at what velocity there 9mm reliably expand . They told me 1200fps do to the relatively small HP cavity . Well that was not what I was hoping to hear because I'm only in the 950fps area with these 147gr. Bullets .

So I went ahead and bought 1k of there 115gr PLHP to try out . I figure I should be able to get those to 1200fps with HS-6 or CFE-pistol . Normally I'd just start low and when I found an accurate load I'd stop regardless of what charge it was . If the first load worked great , I'd might shoot a couple charges higher but likely would stop and go with that low charge .

How ever in this case I'm actually looking for a specific velocity that is right around max for both the bullet and charges . This has made me approach this specific load a bit different then others . If this was me working up just a regular 115gr load I would not be using HS-6 . I'd be using Titegroup or HP-38 . IMHO HS-6 it to slow for the 115gr 9mm bullet but I need it to hit that 1200fps velocity threshold . I may have been over thinking this a bit and I do tend to think a lot about these things .

There 1200fps recommendation may be the reason some guys don't see expansion . They simply are not getting the velocity needed . Seeing how the OP was at 1200fps or above also seems to confirm there recommendation .

I had tested the 115gr HS-6 loads a few weeks ago and with out going into great detail I had inconsistent results ( load development only no media test ) So today I was out there again this time using the 115gr PLHP with HP-38 and had very good results . I was able to reach the 1200fps mark at 5.1gr with very good grouping . Very happy with the results from today and my next step will be to test expansion . My method for this will be different then the OP how ever . My plan is to do a hybrid method using denim , 6" chunk of pork loin and water jugs lined up together in that order .

Hopefully this will give me a "real world" result ???? Anyone have issue with this approach or maybe a way to tweak it to make it more "real world" ????
 
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A bit random but I acquired some spec grade gel and tested some accubonds and some Hornady xtp 115 in a 9mm at 1100 fps. The xtp's made it through a block and a half, opened up massively and the average retention was 95% at 15 yards. They're also ridiculously accurate in that particular pistol. I've also made some gel but it's quite labor intensive and a pain in the butt.

@ randomguy yes that's still one of my most accurate hunting rifles today even after my grandfather took many deer with it over 50 years ago.

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I found the plated HP was inconsistent. Sometimes it would mush out (not what I'd call a mushroom) and the next bullet would simply make a hole w/o any deformation.
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To be honest, you've probably shot more of them than I have at this point. But mine did expand quite dramatically. Might be velocity or just variation in lots.

What were you shooting holes in? What load or velocity?
 
I had tested the 115gr HS-6 loads a few weeks ago and with out going into great detail I had inconsistent results ( load development only no media test ) So today I was out there again this time using the 115gr PLHP with HP-38 and had very good results . I was able to reach the 1200fps mark at 5.1gr with very good grouping . Very happy with the results from today and my next step will be to test expansion . My method for this will be different then the OP how ever . My plan is to do a hybrid method using denim , 6" chunk of pork loin and water jugs lined up together in that order .
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That HP-38 load sounds interesting. I like W231 but didn't know it would perform that well in 9mm. OTOH, W231 is one of the few powders I've had pressure problems out of when I thought I had a good load worked up. :mad: HS-6 has been my go to powder for hot 9mm and .45 ACP but Power Pistol is great too. If you want to play with more velocity, it should do the trick.

Prior to getting this first can of Power Pistol, I had read that it was loud. :confused: Aren't all guns loud? So I went to shoot my newsprint the other day and left my ear muffs at home. NBD, it's just a few rounds of 9mm. Granted, these were hot loads but it really was loud on a whole new level. Not sure what's going on there.

There 1200fps recommendation may be the reason some guys don't see expansion .
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Good chance. I was shooting at contact distance and 1300 fps seemed like too much. I didn't weigh the bullets but they were definitely lighter than the 1200 fps bullets and penetrated less.
 
I've shot hundreds of the Rainier Plated HP in the 124g in my 357SIG hand loads at over 1400 fps and they are accurate and no leading or other issues at those velocities.

I can't speak for expansion as the paper I shot with them didn't put up much resistance.

:cool:
 
Just to expand on my HS-6 test . I believe my inconsistent results ( LARGE velocity spreads through out the development ) . Were do to me seating the bullets deeper then suggested . The theory is primer dislodging the bullet and bullet having to long a jump resulting in the slower HS-6 not having high enough start pressure for a consistent burn . I've not retested the HS-6 with a longer COAL but did use the longer COAL with the HP-38 .

What I do is load ten rounds , shoot 7 for grouping then three over the chrono . My 3 shot avg was 1198fps with ES-32 / SD-13 and was using mixed cases . If I used same head stamp cases with consistent grip that ES/SD would almost surely come down .
 
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