Quick! What can you tell me about Lawrence Tribe?

Jeff Thomas

New member
A good friend will be debating tomorrow, and I want to give him some info re: Lawrence Tribe's recent pronouncements. I'll do some research on the 'net, but I also wanted to see if my TFL buddies could help as well.

I'd swear we covered this recently, but I did a search, and it didn't pop up. Thanks.
 
He is a Constitutional scholar...but he doesn't like the Constitution as it is written. He got excellent grades and wrote well received theses when he was young. He built himself up on many..."gimme" issues.

He is an elitist and feels that electees and appointees gain 50 IQ points upon taking office.

He overextended himself in his prior writtings about the 2nd and got his ass handed back to him...legally and intellectualy ...he is learning that reality and human nature just hasn't yet attained his lofty views.....And a problem with that is that the "cretins" pay his salary, so he has to backtrack a bit.


My personal opinion: as a Constitutional scholar...nay any type of scholar; his research and opinions are weak and biased....he can cite til the cows come home, but when he ventures his interpretation, his weakness prevails. He has no concept of objective interpretation. He is like many folks I went to school with in Science.....he is very competent when you talk text book....put him in the lab or the field and he has no hands or brains. Whether you accept the contents of the Bible or not is not required...but he is analogous to someone telling you that the Bible doesn't say what it does say.

I know what the Bible and the Constitution says...its my choice to accept what they say as they are written, not his.

So, Jeff...tell your friend to be sharp and focus on exactness and not interpretation. No one had a problem with the B of R for 200 yrs, only recently....and thats by candy ass interpretation. If its so bad as is, let them try to amend it.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
DC, you do have a way with words! :D

George Hill, can I have a membership in the DC Fan Club?

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Be mentally deliberate, but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle.
Wyatt Earp
 
There is another view.

Tribe has authored three editions of "American Constitutional Law" which is now a two-volume text for teaching constitutional law at Harvard.

He has also written a number of other books and law review articles, given dozens of lectures and appeared before the Supreme Court in many cases, frequently successfully.

His single most high profile activity was to coach Sen. Biden in the interrogation of Supreme Court nominee, Robert Bork. He brought Bork's nomination down with one question, the first put to Bork by Biden.

The question was, in some fashion, as follows: "Judge Bork, do you believe that the text of the U. S. Constitution contains a right to privacy." Bork said "No" (because, of course, the U. S. Const. does not have the word "privacy" in it) and was toast.

Tribe's views on constitutional interpretation are reflected in many places, but the easiest (i.e., the shortest) version is a 135 page text entitled "On Reading The Constitution," published in 1991 by the Harvard University Press.

The debate over a "strict" vs. a "liberal" CONSTRUCTION of the constitution, particularly when it relates to individual rights, is resolved, in Tribe's view, by reference to the Ninth Amendment("The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be CONSTRUED to deny or disparage others retained by the people.")

Tribe's view of the Ninth Amendment, stated on p. 54 of his book, is that the Ninth Amendment does not create rights, per se, but is instead a rule of construction, in fact the only rule of construction in the constitution.

That rule of construction cannot be advanced, Tribe argues, to support an argument that rights don't exist merely because they are not explicitly recited in the text of the Bill of Rights.

Tribe got a lot of ink recently for simply recognizing that a plausible argument can be made for the notion that the Second Amendment contains a right to bear arms for individuals vs. states. The flurry of interest was apparently the result of a comment in a footnote numbered 220 on pages 901 and 902.

This LONG footnote in an area of the book pertaining to federal state relations (the Second Amendment will be addressed directly in Volume II which is not out yet) states, among other things, that:

"Perhaps the most accurate conclusion on can reach with any confidence is that the Second Amendment is a populist/ republican/ federalism one: Its central object is to arm "We the people" so that ordinary citizens can participate in the collective defense of their community and their state. But it does so not through directly protecting a right on the part of states or other collectivities, assertable by them against the federal govenment to arm the populace as they see fit. Rather, the amendment acheves its central purpose by assuring that the federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consisting with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right (admittedly of uncertain scope) on the part of individuals to possess and use firearm in the defense of themselves and their homes -- not a right to hunt for game, quite clearly, and certainly not a right to employ firearms to commit aggressive acts against other persons -- a right that directly limits action by Congress or by the Executive Branch and may well, in addition, be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by Sec 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action."END OF FOOTNOTE.

Tribe states unambiguously that most forms of gun "control" would, in his view, pass constitutional muster -- control being read not to authorize confiscation -- and states, accurately, that "the jurisprudence of the Second Amendment is radically underdeveloped."

Tribe has altered his views on the second amendment, primarily because he appears to have read more about it. He specifically cites in footnote 211 a long list of relatively new publications, all on interpretation of the second amendment, including: "That Every Man Be Armed" by S. Halbrook, "To Keep And Bear Arms: The Origins of the Anglo-American Right" by J. Malcolm, "Handgun Prohibition And The Oiginal Meaning of the Second Amendment" by D. Kates, "The Embarrassing Second Amendment" by S. Levinson, and on and on and on.

It is a little hard to criticize someone for being willing to reexamine their views. If he ultimately turns out to be an ally in preservation of Second Amendment rights, he will have been the single most important convert for the simple fact of the prominence of his position in the academic world.

[This message has been edited by abruzzi (edited November 03, 1999).]
 
You guys had more luck than I did. I placed "Lawrence Tribe" in the AltaVista search engine and got a few hits.

I spent 15 minutes jumping through hoops on the most promising site (it demanded regis-tration). When the smoke cleared, I found that I had joined the Lawrence family's network of relatives, i.e., a "Tribe".

I was so p****d I haven't tried again. The above posts will do fine for me now.

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If you can't fight City Hall, at least defecate on the steps.
 
Oatka, You have found the flaw in AltaVista that is very frustrating. When I use that engine (which is seldom, I prefer Excite's engine), I always go to the Advanced Search screen. Entering "lawrence tribe" there, I got lots of hits, most of which were actually related to the subject. On the generic search screen, like you, I got the Lawrence Tribe family web site as the first hit.
 
Tribe and another liberal hack wrote an OP-ED piece on Oct. 28 in the New York Times. You can see it at your local library, download it from the Times site for $2.50, or, if I can find it, I will post it here tomorrow.
 
So, DC, do you think Lawrence is misnamed? Perhaps instead of "Tribe" it should be "Tripe?" How about "Trite?"

jth

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Exodus 22:2 -- Biblical precedent for home defense.
 
This just says so much for our grate system of publik edukashun that an acclamed constitutional skolar can get along for so many years without understanding the constitution! Now, it seems, he gets it.

I got the meaning the first time I read it and I'm no constitutional scholar! :)



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Be mentally deliberate, but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle.
Wyatt Earp
 
Many thanks, Abruzzi!

So, is it possible that Tribe REALLY hasn't noticed that the laws in some jurisdictions, (NYC comes to mind) amount to a virutally total prohibition of gun ownership? Or that by his own reading, those guns are to be of the same sort the military is to be armed with? He went all those years opining on the Second amendment without having ever bothered to examine the evidence, so I suppose it IS entirely possible that he hasn't bothered looking at the state of the law before declaring that it's consistant with the Second amendment.

Anyway, Tribe's significance isn't in his depth of scholarship, which is inferior to that of many educated laymen when it comes to the Second amendment. No, his real importance is that he's the caboose on the legal scholarship train.

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Sic semper tyranus!
 
This is the original draft of the 2nd A as Madison wrote it in
1789...the Senate pared it down:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>


The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall
not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated
militia being the best security of a free country;
but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing
arms shall be compelled to render military service in person. [/quote]

Now, one who would claim the title or accept the title of Constitutional scholar would have undoubtedly read this. The original draft is unambiguous and even the present form is clear as to meaning. One who would claim expertise in the Constitution, yet write articles denying it is an individual right is intellectually dishonest. After years, he has "suddenly" seen the truth? Hardly...what he has seen is that honest Constitutional scholars, both Liberal and Conservative, won't support him.

Then he has the gall to say, "oh ok its an individual right...but gun control laws are constitutional." The only Constitutionally compatible gun control law doesn't exist...and if it did exist, it would say in effect:
You can only have the same arms that the military has.

Sorry Abruzzi...I find it extremely easy to critize him :)



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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
As promised yesterday, here is the Tribe/Amar NYT OP-ED. Note especially his opening paragraph.

The New York Times

October 28, 1999

Well-Regulated Militias, and More

By LAURENCE H. TRIBE and AKHIL REED AMAR

Our Constitution, envy of the world, is made of currency too valuable to
be spent reinforcing preconceived conclusions.

Yet both sides in the gun control debate have done just that with the
Second Amendment. Partly as a result, we have reached an impasse. The
House-Senate committee addressing the issue remains deadlocked, as the
White House acknowledged this week.

Most advocates of gun control have argued that the "right to bear arms"
can reach no further than the Second Amendment's preamble, which calls a
"well-regulated Militia . . . necessary to the security of a free
State." They conclude that the amendment shields only state militias
like today's
National Guard from Federal authority. According to these people, the
rights of individuals to self-defense or to private gun ownership are
not constitutionally protected at all. But the Second Amendment
reference to the people's "right" to be armed cannot be trumped by the
Amendment's
preamble. Besides, the 14th Amendment, which makes parts of the Bill of
Rights applicable to the states, reflected a broad agreement that
bearing arms was a "privilege" of each citizen.

Those on the other side have been even more intransigent -- opposing
controls of any kind, with the possible exception of laws keeping
convicted felons from acquiring guns. The gun lobby has argued that
Second Amendment clearly protects "the right of the people to keep and
bear arms," which they regard as giving every citizen a nearly absolute
right to own guns for private pursuits like hunting and target shooting.

The truth is more complicated. Almost no right known to the Constitution
is absolute and unlimited -- not even the rights of free speech and
religious exercise. Thus, it has been a terrible mistake for both sides
in the gun control controversy to insist that the Second Amendment bans
virtually everything or virtually nothing.

The fact is, almost none of the proposed state or Federal weapons
regulations appears to come close to offending the Second Amendment's
core right to self-protection. The right to bear arms is certainly
subject to reasonable regulation in the interest of public safety. Laws
that ban certain types of weapons, that require safety devices on others
and that otherwise impose strict controls on guns can pass
Constitutional scrutiny.

It is often argued that any regulation of weapons, however modest and
sensible, places us on an inescapably slippery slope that can only end
in the confiscation of all guns in private hands. This is precisely the
kind of all-or-none thinking we should reject. As a matter of
constitutional logic, to uphold reasonable regulations is not to say
that no right exists, or that anything goes.

As a matter of practical politics, a great majority of Americans seems
to favor reasonable regulations but oppose wholesale confiscation. If
gun-control advocates conceded that some regulations might indeed go
farther than the Constitution permits, they might earn the confidence of

those who are frightened that the Second Amendment will otherwise be
reduced to a cipher.

Conversely, gun control critics would have greater credibility if they
dropped their insistence that virtually no restrictions are permissible.
Sometimes, the truth -- both constitutionally and democratically -- lies
at neither extreme.

Laurence H. Tribe is a professor of constitutional law at Harvard
University. Akhil Reed Amar is a law professor at Yale University.

Copyright 1999 The New York Times Company


[This message has been edited by jimpeel (edited November 04, 1999).]
 
Tribe's refers in his Third Edition of American Constitutional Law to the Second Amendment RKBA as "a right ...that...may well, in addition, be among the privileges or immunities of United States citizens protected by Sec 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment against state or local government action." This is important, technically, because it provides a bridge to incorporating the right in the panoply of rights which the states cannot alter. For many scholars, the RKBA was historically viewed primarily as a bar to any action by the Feds against the States.

Until today I did not know that Tribe's probable source for this thought was that "LIBERAL HACK" who co-authored the NYT OP-ED page.

In 101 Yale L. J. 1193 (1992), Amar wrote:

QUOTE

The Second Amendment also focused on arms bearing as a political right akin to voting. Thus, a strong argument could be made that the original Amendment protected only adult male citizens. These men, of course, constituted the "militia" of the Amendment's preamble, and we can sensibly read the phrase "the people" in the Amendment's main clause as synonymous with "the militia," thereby eliminating the grammatical and analytic tension that would otherwise exist between the two clauses. [FN293]

Such a reading also draws support from the original Constitution's use of the phrase "the people" to connote "voters"-the same adult male citizens who, roughly speaking, constituted "the militia." [FN294] By contrast, the privileges or immunities clause spoke of all citizens, pointedly including women and children, as made clear by the words immediately preceding Bingham's key sentence defining citizens to include " a ll persons born or naturalized in the United States."

Time and again Reconstructors in 1866 declared that Section One and its companion Civil Rights Act focused on "civil rights," not "political rights" like voting and militia service. [FN295] *1262 But how to fit that vision together with the original Second Amendment?

Put another way, the Second Amendment fused together arms-bearing, militia service, and (implicitly) political participation, yet the overall architecture of the Fourteenth Amendment seems to pull them apart, with civil rights at the core of Section One, and political rights featured separately in Section Two.
...

The Second Amendment poses somewhat different complications. Perhaps the Supreme Court has assumed that the Second is a purely federalism-based right of organized state militias and thus inappropriate for incorporation against states. If so, the Court's assumption rests on a dubious reading of the word "militia" and inattention to the grammar and syntax of the Amendment, which speaks of a right of "the people," not "the states." [FN302]

Even more embarrassing, whatever the reasons for reading the Second Amendment as a states' rights provision analogous to the Tenth Amendment, there are more powerful reasons for so reading the establishment clause, [FN303] which has already been incorporated. [FN304]

But the focus on the Second Amendment suggests a different filter that leads to a new, refined model of incorporation.

Instead of asking whether a given provision is fundamental or not, as Brennan suggests, we must ask whether it is a personal privilege-that is, a private right-of individual citizens, rather than a right of states or the public at large.


END QUOTE

For what it's worth, I used this reference to "privileges and immunities" clause of Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment to challenge the ex parte revocation of a CCW permit in a pleading filed YESTERDAY.

If this is the work product of a LIBERAL HACK we need more, not fewer, of them.
 
Well Gee Mr. Tribe I guess you are right we could outlaw non Militia Firearms, that would never be used by an armed force. Say like inexpensive Handguns, or single shot handguns. But wait the U.S. Goverment admitted that a cheap single shot handgun IS a Militia weapon when they (we) Air dropped thousands of them to the partisans in Nazi Controlled Europe. So I guess that doesn't work.
How about Break open shotguns, after all not Militia in history have ever used them for defense. Wrong again, the British Home Guard use a lot of them. Along with bolt action shotguns, and nearly every other type of weapon we could send.
Fact is there are no firearms that I know of that haven't or Can't been used for the Defense of home or Country. If you Mr. Tribe can name one then by all means outlaw it. As to restricting the purchase, the only law I can see regarding that that would be Constitutional would be that every house hold MUST have at least one firearm available for every able bodied adult, unless that person declare themselves a Pacifaced, and only then would they not be allowed to possess firearms. Or the person had shown by actions, and Court finding, that their Possession of firearms would constitute a subtaincial risk to the community.
Other than that I've seen no Constitiutionally valid gun laws.

Mr. Tribe how can a person who calls himself a Contitutional expert, say "Constitutionally and DEMACRATICLY", and keep a Straight face, or any Crediblity for that matter.
 
It strikes me that Tribe is AMONG those who want the Second amendment reduced to a cypher; A right so attenuated no conceivable act of government could ever violate it. Were we to treat the first amendment the way Tribe would treat the Second, the government could ban vowels, and it wouldn't be considered a violation of free speech because we could still click our tongues.

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Sic semper tyranus!
 
This is exactly what I / we needed - thank you very much for all the help.

Indeed, Brett. I suppose Tribe is not troubled at all with CA's confiscation of 'assault weapons'. After all, it's not like they're confiscating all of them ...

Slippery slope indeed.

Thanks again. Regards from AZ.
 
Tribe like a lot of the liberal scholars such as Levinson, Kates and others are just now starting to get it. But they have yet to reconcile the paradox that they are creating by stating that most gun control laws would pass constitutional muster. One of the undeniable purposes of the second amendment was to give the people the means to defend their lives and liberties from action of either the federal or state governments. If one accepts this premise, which one has to, then giving either the federal government or the state government the power to regulate arms in any manner, which is preventative in nature, creates the paradox. Because with the power to regulate also comes the power to disarm or to make ownership so hard as to in effect deny the right. I've always liked to push the point home by the analogy "would be like giving the keys to the hen house to the fox". The type of laws that I believe that would pass constitutional muster are laws that would punish for crimes committed. Such as yelling fire in a crowed theater. You have the right to yell fire, but upon people being injured, you will be held accountable.

One other point in this paradox. Anti's constantly claim two things. One that we should not have access to fully automatic or assault weapons. The other is that the citizens of today would have no chance in a war against our modern military. If again, one of the purposes of the 2nd is to afford the people the means to protect our liberties, then how can we be denied the use of those weapons? The weapons needed to assure that the people would be able to win such a war are the very weapons that the second is intended to protect.

They are coming around, but they have not thought it completely out yet. This will happen by the creative lawyers in trial once the second has been recognized by the Supreme Court. But it is encouraging to finally see Tribe come around. One hurdle at a time.




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Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
 
The same people who will tell you that "Saturday Night Specials" should be banned because they serve no militia purpose, as defined under the Miller decision, are the same people who will tell you that "assault weapons" should be banned because they are weapons of war that are specifically intended for the killing of people.

Go figure.
 
Thanks again to everyone who responded. The debate was yesterday, and my friend was top notch. I thought he made the professor look bad, but I'm a bit biased. ;)

Interestingly enough, the professor caved in on the individual right argument! But, his perspective was that the RKBA is an individual right, but that still allowed for regulation, all the way up to but not including confiscation of all guns! He did seem to accept the prohibition of many guns.

He cited Miller, and accepted the fact that it stated that guns suitable for militia use are protected. He was woefully ignorant about the 'assault weapons' ban - a student pointed out that Miller would thus contradict such a ban. The professor then seemed to attempt to say that the RKBA protected weapons suitable for the militia, bu the militia is now the National Guard, and the states don't allow the soldiers to take their weapons home. Thus implying that the rest of us can pound sand.

In general, I found the professor to be a bit confused on the subject.

At the end of the debate, the professor was at least honest enough that he admitted he would like to get rid of 'all' guns - however, in context, I believe he meant guns in the hands of civilians. As usual, he based this upon his gut feelings from reading and watching our media. It was clear he had not even attempted to honestly examine the cost / benefit of the equation involved.

A student newspaper reporter was there, and she sounded pretty liberal. Do they test kids for liberal 'genes' before they allow them to major in journalism? ;)

Thanks again for all of your help. The lesson to me at this time is that we can win the 'individual right' battle, and still lose this war. '... shall not be infringed ...' doesn't mean much to these folks.

Regards from AZ
 
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