Questions re: "Marine Sniper"

J

Jeff Thomas

New member
I'm about halfway through this book (re: Carlos Hathcock), and it is raising a number of questions. I suspect I'll have more when I'm done.

Hope you can help:

  1. What is High Power competition? Defined by the cartridge or rifle, or both? 300 Win Mag was what Carlos used in the Wimbledon match - are other calibers used? Do you know a link where I can read more about competition shooting? (My eyes are not good enough to be competitive, but I'd still like to learn, and have the experience.)
  2. When Carlos was shooting the Wimbledon match, I think he dialed in his scope for 14 minutes left (would this then be 1.04 * 10, for a total of 145" of adjustment?), 1,000 yards, with a wind blowing left to right. (To quote: "August 26, 1965 blew in with such a wind that a bullet fired at the 1,000 yard targed carried more than 190 inches to the right before it struck home." 15 feet! Astounding.) How does a long range shooter estimate the adjustment? And, even after that adjustment, he waited for the wind to die down ... that confused me a little, considering the scope adjustment. I just can't get over the idea of hitting a bullseye under such conditions.
  3. Carlos encountered VC / NVA using Moisin Nagant 1891/30 rifles. I assume they were used because they were more accurate than AK's for long range shooting. But, I had the impression those rifles were almost junk. What do you think of Moisin Nagants? Were they the sniper rifle of choice for the VC / NVA?
  4. Carlos used a .50BMG machine gun (M-2, I think), with a scope on it for sniping. That amazed me. And, it was that weapon he used for his longest shot ... 2,500 yards. Now, when I look at .50BMG rifles, I note that most have an elaborate muzzle break, but it seems most .50BMG machine guns do not. Is that because those automatic weapons are so heavy, and the lighter rifles need a muzzlebreak because of their light weight?
    [/list=1]

    Lots of questions, but I appreciate your feedback. The book is rather amazing. I had no idea a sniper could be so effective.

    Regards from AZ
 
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moisen nagants are anything but junk....most never left the factories unless they shot MOA. I have a couple that shoot sub-MOA and one that shoots just 1.5 inch groups..
 
I try my best...

1: It's bit hard to explain the whole story. NRA is a good place to find all the current rules and regulations. It's basically defined by the rifles used in the competition. Mil "appearance" M1A, M1 Grand, & AR15 are in the service rifle group , and all modified (externally/internally) are in another group(can't remeber the name at the mement :( ). Competitors shoot from standing, sitting, and prone in certain time slots. The Wimbledon match you mentioned is the long range match and is a different cataglory.

2:In a match like that, there will be several wind flags down the range to indicate the direction and strength of the wind. Without the help from those flags, you can use a spotting scope to "see" the wind. Mirage rises from the ground and gets blown by the wind and experienced shooters use that as an indicator (same idea as the wind flags).

The direction and magnitude of the wind is never constant over time, but one can observe the "normal" over a given period. To be able to shot where you want at long distance (Wimbledon match @ 1000 yards), one "has to" pull the trigger within that window (or your POI will be several feet off)

3:no idea!!

4:that's right. Even a 40 lb 50BMG rifle is a "fly weight" rifle of that cartridge. The M2 machine gun he used weighted near 130 lb. The Barrett M82A1 still feels like a 12 ga shotgun. Ever imagine shooting one without a brake?
 
Mosin's

Are very accurate rifles, compared to most S Bloc wepons.
They are still in use today, for that very purpose.
The .50 cal shot, was per Carlos, a lucky deal..........
For him, not Mr. VC, brushing his teeth.
As for quest # 2, EXPERIENCE..............and this mountain of a man's man, had TONS of it.
If possible, I think he would have requested one(rifle), before being born..........
We are certainly ALL diminished at this American Hero's passing..........:(
 
Thanks the the info above ... very much.

I've read a bit further. He says you can look at the angle of a mirage in your scope and divide by four to get the wind speed. True? If so, why? So, if you see the mirage taking a roughly 45 degree angle to the right, is it roughly an 11 mph wind blowing left to right?

Little by little I've come to appreciate the geometry and numerous other skills possessed by these long range shooters. Incredible.

Regards from AZ
 
About the Nagants being used as sniper weapons, keep in mind that the 2 highest confirmed kills ever by snipers come from a pair of Finns during the Russo-Finnish Winter war. If I recall correctly they both had over 400 confirmed kills. They both used iron sighted Nagants. Yep 400. The story is on Snipercountry at the link provided above.

I've got a Nagant. It is a great rifle.
 
I good and true rifleman can squeeze the best performance out of any rifle... even a Nagant which by modern US standards is just junk... Full length stock - no free floating barrels - no high tech overpriced CNC milled parts and 1,000 dollar optics...
 
Well, I think I can help answer a couple of these:

1. The match in question was the Wimbledon Cup match, held each year at the National Rifle and Pistol championships at Camp Perry, Ohio. It is part of "Highpower Rifle" competition, but there are several different classifications.


One classification is for any rifle, open sights, or "any-open's", or "any-iron's".
The most common highpower matches are for .30 cal and under, open sights. The targets are fired upon from 200, 300, and 600 yds, utilizing prone, sitting, and standing positions. Orignally a byproduct of service rifle competitions with the 1903 Srpingfield rifle, the allowed calibers .30 and under. The Ar-15 type rifles are becoming more popular, but the M14 / M1A and the M1 Garand can still be seen at matches. There are also bolt action rifles with open sights used in these matches. The sights are often quite complicated...not your basic service rifle sights.

There are also longer range contests. Palma matches are any-open, limited to the .308, and shot at 1000yds. The Leech cup at Camp Perry is also a 1000 yd any-open. Shooters usually score comparable scores to shooters in the Wimbledon cup matches, also at 1000yds, and which are any rifle, any sights, (any-any), including scopes. Again, I don't know if there is a cal. limit, but it's probably the .30's. Don't know too many contestants using the .416 Rigby's on the firing line.

As far as the windage on the line, Camp Perry is notorious for it's gusts, since it's very close to the Great Lakes. Winds and the constantly changing patterns are what make Long Range shooting a challange.

I think the NRA still has it's Highpower rule book available. Try
http://www.nra.org

It should be available on the web site, or you can give them a call.

The .50 used in the book is the same one you'll see on tanks and Humvee's, the M2, usually mounted, (o.k., always mounted, since it'ld be a cast-iron b!tch to hold), which provides a very stable platform. It also posseses a slow cyclic rate of fire, which allows it to be employed in that particular role. The Marine Corps, and probably the other services as well, are employing the BMG in their arsenal. More a hunting rifle than a machine gun. That's the one with the elaborate muzzle brake.
 
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Questions: re marine sniper

Jeff Thomas: I see that you are very enthusiastic about high power rifles. I think that you would enjoy joining and shooting in a high power rifle club. In my area some of the clubs are letting the older shooters or anyone else compete in another classification that enables them to use a telescopic sight. The scores are not official but some clubs even give trouphies in the scope class. You cannot use a scope except in a few special events at camp perry but many people do not go to perry but only compete at their local clubs anyway. If you become an expert or master shooter you will realize that it takes a lot of practice and dedication to become a really first class rifleman. And the next time you see the weekend sandbaggers shooting their rifles you will only smile because you will know that they do not really know much about being a real rifleman at all. W.R.
 
echo3mike:

True, the M2 does have a low cyclic rate of fire, I thought it was funny to learn that this big powerful machine gun is capable of single shots!

As far as the Barrett goes, when I left the Marine Corps it was very much a standard weapon with the active duty, although in the Reserves our primary weapon was still the 7.62 M40A1. Other team members carried an M-203, M-240G, and I believe most of them carried M-9's as well.

I remember hearing before I left that the Air National Guard on the same base had been issued some Barretts... for Explosive Ordinance Disposal.


Check Six
 
Adventurer_96

What kind of team in the Marine Corps are you refering to carrying M240Gs, and are they SL3 complete guns?
 
The 50 Cal M2 is, indeed, capable of firing single shots. That's what the single trigger in the middle of the butterfly trigger is for. The butterfly is used for automatic fire. The weapon also has a mounting area for a scope on the left rear of the receiver.
 
While prismatic sights on the M2 were experimented with prior to WW II (See Senich), the scope equipped .50 cal M2 first served as a sniper weapon during Korea and were effective at 1,200 yards. Gunny's contribution was to push it to 2,500 yards.
 
The single trigger between the butter flies is the bolt latch. Normally it is in the on position with the bolt latch release lock rotated over it. This making the M2 a close bolt weapon.
 
Jeff if I may I will recommend a couple of books and vidios to you.John Plasters ultimate sniper and his advanced ultimate sniper vidio.The first is a set of one book and a vidio.All are well worth getting and contain a wealth of information on long range shooting.Range estimation,reading the wind and so on.Some of the information gets into the military realm,such as gilly suits.
 
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Where do I put the scope?
 
STLRN,

I stand corrected. It's been close to 40 years since I was on a .50 crew and it was an additional duty in a HAWK Bn Hq. I seem to remember a procedure for single fire, but can't recall the details.

Rich
 
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