Questions on a Enfield and a Garand

S

sd gunslinger

Inactive
With the current political climate I feel the need for a couple of good all around weapons. Does anyone here have any experience with a Ishapore .308 Enfield? Are they any good? Do they handle the .308 cartridge ok? Also on a Garand do they funtion ok with commercial hunting ammunition or should you stick to GI loads? Any info will be much appreciated.
 
Re the M1 Garand. They were designed to operate within a certain pressure curve. If you use civilian ammo, be sure that it closely matches the internal ballistics of the GI ammo. Too high powered and you'll pound your Garand to pieces (receivers have been known to crack from the peening). Too light and you'll experience malfunctions.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
The Rifle, 7.62mm, 2A (India) made at Ishapore is a pretty good rifle. The steel is much better than that used in the old .303 Rifle No. 1 MkIII. Still, I don't know how well they would stand up to extensive shooting (5000 rds and up), since they still have the basic problems of the Lee-Enfield design, and they were made for police, not military, and may not have been expected to have high endurance.

That rifle also was made for military ammo and functioning with soft point ammo should not be assumed.

Anyone with more experience want to comment?

Jim
 
What are "the basic problems of the Lee-Enfield design"? The Lee-Enfields (the #4 series in particular) are regarded as the finest bolt action battle rifles ever produced. They are amazingly robust. Much more so than your typical mauser varient or commercial hunting rifles. The most common "complaints" about the Enfields are actually some of their strongest assets. While the cock on closing type of action may not be as slick an the cock on opening actions it is a far better system for use in battlefield conditions where your rifle and/or ammunition may be dirty. All of your energy on opening can be concentrated on removing the expended cartrige which can be difficult with the addition of some dirt. The two piece stock design is actually stronger than the more conventional one piece design. If you remove the buttstock you will find a massive bolt running through it which all but eliminates the chances of cracking the stock at the wrist.
My only complaint with the Ishapore is it's sites. I prefer the #4 Mk 1 or 2 in 303 British. The heavier barrel and the combintion ghost ring battle site and long range peep, volley site make for a much more accurate rifle in my hands. The Ishapore was produced mainly for police forces but it's design was forged on the battlefield. It is a very good weapon. The metalurgy is sound and was designed specifically for high pressure milspec 308 ammo. Buy one while they are cheap and availble. I think you will be pleased. For all the Enfield info you can handle check out www.gunandknife.com and go to the Enfield section.
 
Hi Jaeger,

You might get an argument from Mauser fans on the "best bolt action." I agree that the L-E was a good battle rifle, but it had problems. The two piece stock was not great for accuracy and the rear locked bolt had a tendency both to spring in firing and to compress over time. Under high pressure, the No. 1 bends, letting the bolt head come clear of the breech. The escaping gas blows out the magazine and usually the extractor and stretches the action. This is with pressures that a Mauser, Springfield or Pattern 14/Model 1917 would take with ease. While the rifle in general is easy to clean, disassembly of the bolt was (deliberately made) impossible in the field.

The L-E gets high marks for rapid bolt manipulation (the Rifleman says the trigger was pulled with the little finger; it was the middle finger), ease in cleaning, and the No. 4 had good battle sights. (The U.S. Model 1903 sights are a joke, designed for sunlit ranges and bullseye targets.)

Jim
 
Jim,

Don't get me wrong, I love my mausers. It is still my opinion that the #4 series was the best bolt action BATTLE rifle ever fielded. I cannot inteligently comment on the #1s as I do not own one and have not studied them as much. The #4s are plenty accurate enough (1-2" ammo depending) The stock problems that you are referring to manifested themselves mostly in the #5 Jungle Carbines. (wandering zero problem) I do believe that you are correct that mauser derivatives have much more accuracy POTENTIAL than the LEs do however for a battle rifle and a general purpose rifle even minute of angle accuracy is waste on most people.

I can say without a doubt that the LEs handle "misdirected" gasses better than any other rifle that I own. I shot the better part of a bandolier of ammo through my #4 Mk 1 one afternoon last month. While I was policing up my brass I noticed that several of the cases had ruptured primers. The rifle shot fine and I never noticed the problem when shooting.

The bolt does require 2 tools for detailed takedown. A small screwdriver and a bolt wrench. Using these tools the bolt is easily disassembled for detailed cleaning. Fortuately this is rarely necessary in the field. The bolt head easily unscrews for cleaning the firing pin. The bolt heads came in differen numberd sizes so that fixing a headspace problem is as easy as replacing your last bolt head with one of the next size up. No tools required.
 
Jaeger, I agree with everything you said. It is true that the No.4 corrected just about all the problems of the No. 1 (there weren't actually that many) except the bolt compression. This only shows after thousands of rounds and is the reason they made different size bolt heads. The main problem with the L-E (not, of course, the Indian 2A) really isn't the fault of the rifle. The .303 British ammo is not only rimmed, it is corrosive and mercuric primed, erosive (cordite), and fouling.

There is no doubt that the L-E is the speed champion, no other action can beat it.

I think the main advantage of the L-E design is that it can be cleaned easily. Like the M1, the little finger can clean just about everywhere that needs it. The M16 needs special tools and brushes and a fair time out of action for cleaning.

Jim
 
You are correct about the old milspec ammo. If you want to shoot the rifle a lot and maintain optimum condition then you should discriminate when purchasing ammo. WW2 ammo and the Pakistani ammo that is on the market will shoot ok (as long as tha cordite hasn't started to degrade) but may decrease the overall service life of your rifle. As an aside, the original Mk VII ball ammo was probably some of the most effective anti-personel ball ammo ever produced. The bullets were manufactured with a light (usually aluminum) insert in the tip . While they were perfectly stable in flight and gave excellant penetration against hard targets when they hit soft tissue they tumbled causing massive wounds. (much like the original 5.56X45 55 gr. bullet fired from a 1 in 12 twist barrel) Even though the 303s ballistics were slightly inferior to most of the other rounds used at the time the effective range was generally greater.

The current Greek manufacture ammo uses non mercuric primers and modern smokeless powder. I have idea how their bullets are constructed. It does shoot well out of my Enfields. As I believe I mentioned before the major manufacturers are releasing match ammo this summer for the 303. All of them already make hunting ammo and I believe the Remington makes 174gr milspec ammo. Hornady makes a 150gr loading in its' Light Magnum line that is advertised at (if I remember correctly) 2800 fps.

It may not be the "latest and the newest" super magnum hyper velocity 2000 yd. sniper cartrige but for anyone who wants to take game at ethical and sportsmanlike ranges or who finds himself in need of a battle rifle to engage targets out to 800 yds (+ or - depending on the rifleman) the 303 British fired from a #4 Mk1 or 2 is tough beat.

SD Gunslinger, does this answer your question?
smile.gif
Probably a bit more info than you were looking for. Sorry, I like talking about Enfields almost as much as I like shooting them!
 
Where the HELL can I find a decent one!?! Ive been over all the gun shops in my area, and the pawn shops as well. The rifles all have crooked sights, bad metal, and dented, scratched up wood. Are there any good online companies that offer good enfields?

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"Quemadmoeum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
(The sword does not kill; it is a tool in the hands of the killer.)
 
Navy Arms has several good deals on original and REPRODUCTION Enfields. Their Number 4 Tanker and Number 5 carbine are both built on Number 4 late 40s early 50s guns. Mine (Carbine) shoots Hornaday 150 grain Light Magnums just swell! They have RFI 2A rifles in .308 and other Commonwealth variants in .303.

You'll spend $160 to $180.

Good Luck
 
Okay, I went to Navy Arms' website at http://www.navyarms.com/html/sporting_rifles.html and they've got some ***COOL*** stuff! The .45-70 No. 4 looks nifty, for one! (although I'd prefer it retained the No. 4 sights) The light carbines look nifty, but for those silly muzzle breaks. An 18" bbl is going to give me enough blast that I don't need to redirect still more of that stuff into my face!

But they've got some nice lightweight stuff that goes 7 lbs or less, with mount! Not a bad platform for a "pseudo scout" for the man on a budget.

Does Hornady offer that Light Magnum in 180g?

This stuff is so cool, I may have to get me another Smelly. Last year I loaded up Dad's *Genuine* Jungle Carbine that some fool had sporterized with Sierra GameKing 180's and hunted Elk in the black timber up in CO. Handy! Lord!



[This message has been edited by Long Path (edited June 20, 1999).]
 
Thanks to all for the discussion on Enfields. I have been able to examine a #4 with the peep sight and agree it is excellent .Would there be any of the .308 rifles available with this sight or could you adapt one of the #4 sights to a Ishapore rifle ? Also the ads I have seen on the Ishapores list the full length rifle ,a "tanker carbine" and a copy of the jungle carbine. Which one do you think would be the best choice? I have nothing against the .303 cartridge it would be just as effective as any other but the .308 would be better from the standpoint of ammo availability.
 
For great service and best quality rifles, for a little more $, but worth it. go to

Empire Arms
http://www.empirearms.com /
phone (904) 677-7314

This place has the BEST service I've ever encountered. The owner Dennis Kroh, is very knowledgable, and easy to work with.
I just got two never issiued k98mauser (Yugo)
1 unissued Persian Mauser. and
an unissued Enfield No. 4Mk.2, the last variant.
He has them from $100-up depending on quality, age and rarity, NO JUNK!
Try it, you'll like it.
 
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