Questions about .410 ammunition

[TriggerHappyAl]

1.) Are .410 slugs really as powerful as a .44 magnum?

2.) Sorry I can't be more specific on this one, but how devastating are the bird shot loads at close range? And the triple-ought buckshot?

 

[oneounceload]

If you are talking about bird shot on birds - they can be effective to about 20-25 yards.

If you're thinking that a Judge loaded with them is a good HD gun, they are not.

 

[darkgael]

.410

) Are .410 slugs really as powerful as a .44 magnum?

No.
The basic .410 slug weighs 90 grains and has a MV of about 1600 fps (or it is advertised as so). This yields a ME of about 500 ft.lbs
The standard .44 magnum 240 grain jacketed bullet at just under 1400 fps will deliver twice the energy of the .410.
Pete

 

[DPris]

Not in any way, shape, or form are .410 slugs as powerful as a standard .44 Magnum.

The slugs are much lighter, much softer, and do not penetrate anywhere near as well because they lose momentum on impact much more rapidly. They are susceptible to deformation because of their soft lead construction, and not in the more controlled and efficient energy transfer of a properly constructed jacketed bullet. They do not hold shape or momentum in passing through tissue like a hardcast lead .44 Mag bullet.
They do not possess the same energy figures.

If you're asking relative to use in a Taurus Judge, the .410 slug velocity is greatly reduced as opposed to using it in a longer .410 shotgun barrel.
Accuracy suffers in that the nominally .41-caliber hollowbased slug has to bump up to engage the .45 caliber rifling.

Birdshot loads through a smoothbore shotgun barrel can be effective on relatively small game at relatively close distances, compared to a 12-gauge.
Nobody with much sense at all advocates birdshot through a .410 shotgun for defensive uses.

Birdshot through the Judge is a dismal idea beyond 20 feet, probably less. The rifling causes the shot column to spin immediately on exiting the bore, which in turn causes an already small shot charge to rapidly expand outward leaving a doughnut-shaped pattern (with little to no pellet coverage in the center) that quickly grows with travel.
Velocities are also correspondingly lower through the short barrel than in a longer shotgun barrel.

How devastating on what?
Inside 20 feet, can be very devastating on a snake or skunk, the closer the better.
On people, I would not bet my life or yours on birdshot through the Judge in a defensive situation.


Denis

 

[Crosshair]

2.) Sorry I can't be more specific on this one, but how devastating are the bird shot loads at close range? And the triple-ought buckshot?

The 4 pellet OOO buckshot load by Federal did surprisingly well in the test that I did. In something with a longer barrel, like a Taurus Judge, it should perform even better. The Federal premium OOO buckshot is the load I carry in my Bond Arms Derringer. I was skeptical at first of the Federal premium load, but after shooting and testing it is THE .410 buckshot load for handguns IMHO.

Here is a link to the thread here that I started, describing the performance. I even took video and uploaded it.
Federal Premium .410 buckshot/Bond Arms Derringer Water jug test.

Here is some of what I wrote. Follow the link to watch the video.

Test Results: All 4 pellets penetrated into the 4th jug. Two of the pellets impacted the end of the 4th jug hard enough to make large indents on the 5th jug, but they did not break the 5th jug. This means that 2 pellets had between 18" and 24" of water penetration and two pellets would have had slightly more than 24" of penetration had they not been stopped by the jug.

Recoil was slightly greater than a 45 colt round, but not enough to make getting off two shots difficult.

Observation of recovered pellets: All 4 pellets were at the bottom of the 4th jug, gathered toward the far end, indicating that the two pellets that didn't impact the far side of the 4th jug at least made it close to the far end.

It is quite clear in what order the pellets were loaded into the shell as one pellet is seriously flattened and the others get progressively less flat.

The path through the jugs appeared to be straight except for one pellet that seems to have corkscrewed a bit as it's path through the jug is slightly curved it seems. I'm not sure.

Personal Conclusion: This ammunition, from my derringer, appears to meet the 12" of penetration that many people desire. It offers a reasonable, but not excessive, spread at distances up to 5 yards. This is NOT a long range weapon, nor is it intended to be. At 5 yards it is easy to keep all 4 pellets on a pizza box sized target but beyond that you will probably have one or more pellets miss.

 

[DPris]

Bear in mind that the shot column's spin rate is determined by the barrel's twist rate and the velocity out the muzzle.
The faster the rifling twist, the faster the shot column's velocity & the faster it expands.
The faster the velocity, the quicker centrifugal force will spin out the shot column.

Velocity in a smoothbore with buckshot still affects patterning to a degree, which is part of the idea behind the relatively tighter patterns produced by "low recoil" (read lower velocity) buckshot loads, but nowhere nearly as much as it affects patterns in a rifled bore.
Patterning can be further reduced by a smoothbore's choke.

In a rifled bore, your shot will spread rapidly.
In a LONGER rifled bore, with usually attendent higher velocities (even if only slightly longer & slightly faster), I'd expect worse patterning simply because of the above, not better patterning.
Penetration may increase fractionally, but at the expense of larger patterns.

Denis

 

[Crosshair]

In a rifled bore, your shot will spread rapidly.

That happens in 12 and 20 gauge loads where the pellets are offset from the centerline. In something like .410, the buckshot is loaded inline with the center of the bore. Thus the shot pattern with buckshot is not as negatively affected in .410 as it is with 20 and 10 gauge in my experience.

 

[DPris]

In the Judge I tested, with bird & buck, patterns spun out very rapidly, a very short range gun.
Denis

 

[Crosshair]

What Buckshot did you use? The problem with some of them is that the buckshot is so soft that it flattens until it looks like a coin. The Federal stuff I tried was quite hard and did not flatten very much vs some other ones.

 

[DPris]

I tried one three-pellet 000 Winchester load, all I had on hand in .410 at the time. At 15 yards the spread was too great to count on all three pellets staying inside a man-sized silhouette.
You may see some improvement with another buck size & number of pellets, but they'll all still rotate & spread out quick.

Five different half-ounce birdshot loads were all what I'd consider 7 yard max propositions in terms of putting enough pellets together in any one spot to bring down a pigeon, skunk, or squirrel. Even then, it'd have to be from the "outer ring" concentration striking just right, not the mostly empty center of the pattern.

Denis

 

[natman]

1.) Are .410 slugs really as powerful as a .44 magnum?

2.) Sorry I can't be more specific on this one, but how devastating are the bird shot loads at close range? And the triple-ought buckshot?

1) 410 slugs are nowhere near as powerful as a 44 Mag. A 410 slug is extremely light (85-109 grains) for its diameter, which limits penetration. A 44 mag slug is 200 grains+.

2) Birdshot is for birds.

 

[BBroadside]

The ballistics of .410 slugs are truly unique. I remember trying to find a cartridge comparable to them ... I figured there must be some load in either .41 Action Express or .41 Magnum that was comparable.

No dice ... .41-caliber bullets considerably heavier than .410 slugs. This gives the slugs an advantage in muzzle velocity which is lost pretty quickly due to the lackluster aerodynamics of the slug which others have described effectively.

So if you ignore diameter and go with only weight and velocity, the closest equivalent is something like .30 Carbine!* But that is misleading since bullets and Foster slugs are so different. .30 Carbine is going to be much more accurate, and more effective at all but the closest ranges. Multiply that by the much greater magazine capacity of anything in .30 Carbine (except the Ruger Blackhawk), and it's hard to see why anyone would put much faith in the .410 slug.

(None of this diminishes my fascination with the .410. Every time I see one, I want it. Even the silly ugly ones like the FMJs and the beautiful British ones I could never afford. If I got one, I would buy slugs, and I would miss around with them. This is why faith and love are different things.)

* That's what I found in 1999 or something. If there is a bulleted cartridge closer to the .410 slug in projective weight and MV, I missed it. If anyone knows one, please share.