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Question
- Thread starter mrat
- Start date
mrat,
I would like to turn that question around and ask it of you in a different way.
What if you were being held as a POW or in prison. Would you wish to have your son with you in prison or would you prefer that he stay free?
Of course this father wants to see his child, what father wouldn't! But this man lives in a nation that does not allow for free expression, free movement, freedom to do as one pleases or any other freedom. We do not know what his desires truly are for his son. He must say what the Cuban government (Fidel Castro) tells him to or his family remaining in Cuba stands a good chance of being harmed.
According to the Cuban constitution, Juan Gonzales is the childs father in name only. The child belongs to the State, or in other words, Fidel Castro. If or when Elian is returned to Cuba, he will not be living with his father, he will be sent to be reprogramed by the Communists. This was admitted to by Castro. Only when the Cubans have brainwashed him so that he no longer remembers what freedom is, will he be returned to his fathers home.
Upon turning eleven years old, Elian will be sent to a labor camp where he will be forced to harvest either sugar cane or tobacco. When not working in the fields, he will be attending classes on how to be a good little revolutionary.
This is not a matter of returning him to his father in a nation of wretched poverty. It is a matter of returning him to a totalitarian dictatorship with a total lack of even the most fundamental of freedoms. He will be returning to a prison!
Tens of thousands of American fathers have sacrificed their very lives for the ability of their children to live free from oppression and slavery. To me, that is the ultimate display of a fathers love!
I would like to turn that question around and ask it of you in a different way.
What if you were being held as a POW or in prison. Would you wish to have your son with you in prison or would you prefer that he stay free?
Of course this father wants to see his child, what father wouldn't! But this man lives in a nation that does not allow for free expression, free movement, freedom to do as one pleases or any other freedom. We do not know what his desires truly are for his son. He must say what the Cuban government (Fidel Castro) tells him to or his family remaining in Cuba stands a good chance of being harmed.
According to the Cuban constitution, Juan Gonzales is the childs father in name only. The child belongs to the State, or in other words, Fidel Castro. If or when Elian is returned to Cuba, he will not be living with his father, he will be sent to be reprogramed by the Communists. This was admitted to by Castro. Only when the Cubans have brainwashed him so that he no longer remembers what freedom is, will he be returned to his fathers home.
Upon turning eleven years old, Elian will be sent to a labor camp where he will be forced to harvest either sugar cane or tobacco. When not working in the fields, he will be attending classes on how to be a good little revolutionary.
This is not a matter of returning him to his father in a nation of wretched poverty. It is a matter of returning him to a totalitarian dictatorship with a total lack of even the most fundamental of freedoms. He will be returning to a prison!
Tens of thousands of American fathers have sacrificed their very lives for the ability of their children to live free from oppression and slavery. To me, that is the ultimate display of a fathers love!
Cactus
I have heard others talking about the re-education camps. Do you have a reliable source for me to read these comments. No flame inteneded, it's just that these last few weeks, whenever I've seen a report on Elian I've tuned out.
Thanks
------------------
Rob
From the Committee to Use Proffesional Politicians as Lab Animals
I have heard others talking about the re-education camps. Do you have a reliable source for me to read these comments. No flame inteneded, it's just that these last few weeks, whenever I've seen a report on Elian I've tuned out.
Thanks
------------------
Rob
From the Committee to Use Proffesional Politicians as Lab Animals
crobrun,
Castro was speaking on Cuban radio regarding the reprograming of Elian. Of course he didn't refer to it as reprograming! This has been reported by various news outlets and has not been denounced by anyone that I am aware of.
As for being sent to labor camps at the age of eleven, this was reported by Fidal Castros daughter. She fled Cuba and now lives in Spain. She was interviewed on Fox's Hannity and Colmes this past week.
Castro was speaking on Cuban radio regarding the reprograming of Elian. Of course he didn't refer to it as reprograming! This has been reported by various news outlets and has not been denounced by anyone that I am aware of.
As for being sent to labor camps at the age of eleven, this was reported by Fidal Castros daughter. She fled Cuba and now lives in Spain. She was interviewed on Fox's Hannity and Colmes this past week.
Crobrun:
While certainly not complete, the following quotes a little about official Cuban doctorine:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/jacoby/2000/jj01-14-00.htm
Regards
While certainly not complete, the following quotes a little about official Cuban doctorine:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/jacoby/2000/jj01-14-00.htm
Regards
Munro Williams
New member
Because so many folks these days have no concept of totalitarianism, constant reference to communism, Castro, freedom, etc., are words that have no real meaning.
Thus, an ideologically preoccupied totalitarian functionary becomes just another guy trying to get his kid back.
A better comparison would be with an escape from a cult, which is just what Marxist-Leninism is, and a cult member hunting down the reprobate.
If and when this poor child returns, he'll be thrown back into a thought control situation.
What a nightmare.
------------------
ALARM! ALARM! CIVILIZATION IS IN PERIL! THE BARBARIANS HAVE TAKEN THE GATES!
Thus, an ideologically preoccupied totalitarian functionary becomes just another guy trying to get his kid back.
A better comparison would be with an escape from a cult, which is just what Marxist-Leninism is, and a cult member hunting down the reprobate.
If and when this poor child returns, he'll be thrown back into a thought control situation.
What a nightmare.
------------------
ALARM! ALARM! CIVILIZATION IS IN PERIL! THE BARBARIANS HAVE TAKEN THE GATES!
If a six-year-old child is old enough to state his own mind as to where he wants to live is any six-year-old from any oppressed country also so disposed? An example:
A family visits America from the People's Republic of China and they go to Disneyland. The six-year-old child of this family is so enamored of Mickey and friends that he walks up to a Disneyland security guard and says he wants asylum "just like that Elian kid". Does the Disneyland security guard have a duty to that child to remove him to a secure area and call the local authorities and INS?
------------------
Gun Control: The proposition that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own panty hose, is more acceptable than allowing that same woman to defend herself with a firearm.
A family visits America from the People's Republic of China and they go to Disneyland. The six-year-old child of this family is so enamored of Mickey and friends that he walks up to a Disneyland security guard and says he wants asylum "just like that Elian kid". Does the Disneyland security guard have a duty to that child to remove him to a secure area and call the local authorities and INS?
------------------
Gun Control: The proposition that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own panty hose, is more acceptable than allowing that same woman to defend herself with a firearm.
Munro Williams
New member
Oh, come on jimpeel, that is so improbable as to be absurd.
This whole thing is absurd. That boy is not for us to decide where he belongs, that is for his father to decide and his father wants him back. We should not stop him.
If Cuba is so horrible we can't send this boy back with his father then we should invade Cuba and free ALL their children. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it.
If Cuba is so horrible we can't send this boy back with his father then we should invade Cuba and free ALL their children. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it.
Munro Williams
New member
The boy is an escapee from a cult. The mother basically said, "We'll live in Cuba over my dead body," like escaping from an abusive husband, and well, the father took her at her word.
Sensop,
I thought we were debating an issue. Do you have nothing better to say than to point out I don't have my email address posted on my profile? I have always respected your posts in the past even when I did not agree with them. Lets stick to the topic and not start a flame war.
I thought we were debating an issue. Do you have nothing better to say than to point out I don't have my email address posted on my profile? I have always respected your posts in the past even when I did not agree with them. Lets stick to the topic and not start a flame war.
mrat, I have 4 sons that I love more than my own life. If I were in slavery and they in freedom, I would want them to be free!
Yes, I would miss them to the point of dying.
Do you or anyone believe that Castro or Clinton gives a damn about the kid. A commie talked big and Clinton helped out his political brother.
Yes, I would miss them to the point of dying.
Do you or anyone believe that Castro or Clinton gives a damn about the kid. A commie talked big and Clinton helped out his political brother.
AllanHampton
New member
re-education camps? Try our federal government indoctrination education system, otherwise known as public schools.
I have a real problem with kidnaping and even more so when the strong arm of the federal government is used to do it.
Yeah, I have a huge problem with a corrupt government and again even more so with citizens who support an unconstitutional corrupt government, especially if it's their own government.
If citizens who don't believe the federal government of these United States is unconstitutional and corrupt then they are either asleep or brainwashed.
Article of Amendment #10
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
* delegated (given; granted)
* reserved (kept back or set aside)
* respectively (individually)
1.. Demands that any power not given to the central or federal government, within this Constitution, and any power not expressly prohibited to the State governments by this Constitution are kept back, or set aside (permanently) to the States or to the people.
2.. There is no constitutional mandate as to which powers belong to the individuals and which to the State, (except those declared within the Constitution, including this Bill of Rights) because this document does not pretend to declare the States or the people to be under its jurisdiction, except in the specified matters listed within this Constitution.
3.. NOTE: Remember, the people are granting rights (powers) to a governing body with this Constitution. The governing body does not yet exist, and so is incapable of granting rights.
4.. The first 8 Articles of Amendment attempt to preserve specific rights of the people. The last two Articles of Amendment attempt to clarify the fact that these are not rights that ever belonged to the (any) United States government, and therefore are not under that government's jurisdiction. Got It?
Prepared by Joanne Campbell
I have the entire Constitution as above and will email it to anyone who wants it. ahampton@tcainternet.com
The Constitution is the supreme Law of the land in this Republic. Think it, sleep on it, dream it, eat it, drink it, study it, talk about it, believe it and support it or lose it.
Help restore a constitutional government by voting third party come November.
I have a real problem with kidnaping and even more so when the strong arm of the federal government is used to do it.
Yeah, I have a huge problem with a corrupt government and again even more so with citizens who support an unconstitutional corrupt government, especially if it's their own government.
If citizens who don't believe the federal government of these United States is unconstitutional and corrupt then they are either asleep or brainwashed.
Article of Amendment #10
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
* delegated (given; granted)
* reserved (kept back or set aside)
* respectively (individually)
1.. Demands that any power not given to the central or federal government, within this Constitution, and any power not expressly prohibited to the State governments by this Constitution are kept back, or set aside (permanently) to the States or to the people.
2.. There is no constitutional mandate as to which powers belong to the individuals and which to the State, (except those declared within the Constitution, including this Bill of Rights) because this document does not pretend to declare the States or the people to be under its jurisdiction, except in the specified matters listed within this Constitution.
3.. NOTE: Remember, the people are granting rights (powers) to a governing body with this Constitution. The governing body does not yet exist, and so is incapable of granting rights.
4.. The first 8 Articles of Amendment attempt to preserve specific rights of the people. The last two Articles of Amendment attempt to clarify the fact that these are not rights that ever belonged to the (any) United States government, and therefore are not under that government's jurisdiction. Got It?
Prepared by Joanne Campbell
I have the entire Constitution as above and will email it to anyone who wants it. ahampton@tcainternet.com
The Constitution is the supreme Law of the land in this Republic. Think it, sleep on it, dream it, eat it, drink it, study it, talk about it, believe it and support it or lose it.
Help restore a constitutional government by voting third party come November.
To any of you out there that would believe a single word that comes from the mouths of Bill Clinton or Janet Reno (let alone that vile doberman lawyer piece of sh*t Craig), check out this recent piece reprinted on MSNBC's web page. The author is from the Wall Street Journal, but MSNBC is hardly a bastion of the right wing.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/397724.asp?cp1=1
This article is VERY revealing on where the true politics lie. Has anybody heard of ANYTHING WHATSOEVER this administration has done to intercede on behalf of the poor kids referenced in this article? Which DADDY is Elian really being reunited with?
Sorry to rant, but anybody that really thinks this is about the right of Elian's biological father to have custody of his son is very blind indeed.
Oscar
P.S. Perhaps Janet and Bill were merely trying to give Elian a taste of what life back home in Cuba will be like.
[This message has been edited by Oscar (edited April 24, 2000).]
http://www.msnbc.com/news/397724.asp?cp1=1
This article is VERY revealing on where the true politics lie. Has anybody heard of ANYTHING WHATSOEVER this administration has done to intercede on behalf of the poor kids referenced in this article? Which DADDY is Elian really being reunited with?
Sorry to rant, but anybody that really thinks this is about the right of Elian's biological father to have custody of his son is very blind indeed.
Oscar
P.S. Perhaps Janet and Bill were merely trying to give Elian a taste of what life back home in Cuba will be like.
[This message has been edited by Oscar (edited April 24, 2000).]
Oscar, What an article. Indeed, where is the outcry on that?
To all you "fathers" out there that are applauding this gestapo raid--Who among you would have waited for Elian to be delivered to you? Who among you (the weaklings among you need not reply) wouldn't have taken the first opportunity to travel to Miami, despite ANY reception that may have been awaiting you? When he didn't do that, I had but one conclusions -- his biological father was not the Daddy to whom Elian was being returned. All the while, his Miami relatives were looking out for him like a true family would and should have. Juan Miguel (sp?), in my mind, is not the guy our Red Press is painting him to be. This guy is either a thug himself, or a weak pawn of Castro (or perhaps both).
Matt
To all you "fathers" out there that are applauding this gestapo raid--Who among you would have waited for Elian to be delivered to you? Who among you (the weaklings among you need not reply) wouldn't have taken the first opportunity to travel to Miami, despite ANY reception that may have been awaiting you? When he didn't do that, I had but one conclusions -- his biological father was not the Daddy to whom Elian was being returned. All the while, his Miami relatives were looking out for him like a true family would and should have. Juan Miguel (sp?), in my mind, is not the guy our Red Press is painting him to be. This guy is either a thug himself, or a weak pawn of Castro (or perhaps both).
Matt
Jimpeel,
In a word, yes. Any person fleeing from a country where they would face the risk of death or imprisonment upon their repatriation has the right to seek political asylum in this country. Ther 11th circuit court of appeal just reaffirmed this right and stated that the right exists for anybody fitting the criteria, regardless of age. So the little Chinese child could claim political asylum and the law requires that the child be allowed to stay until the hearing.
The Clintons have decided that jurisprudence only applies when they agree with the result. They babble about the rule of law as they flout it. There are grave questions concerning the alleged warrant for the raid, whether the warrant specified the manner of entry, and whether those specifications were followed. There is also the question of who is representing Elian. Greg Craig is not. Mr. Craig is Juan Gonzolez' lawyer. It is a clear conflict of interest for Mr. Craig to claim to represent Elian since then Mr. Craig is effectively representing both plaintiff and defendent. Elian already has legal representation. That representation is being denied to him by his sequestration at Andrews. Another constitutional violation. The Clintons like to break the law wholesale.
So, yes, Elian is an illegal alien. But the minute he stepped foot on American soil the laws and rights that differentiate this country from Cuba (at least for now) went into effect. Those laws and rights are second to nothing, not presidential conniving, dictatorial demands, or even father's wishes. Elian has the right to due process. The Clintons are seeking to violate his rights. Period.
In a word, yes. Any person fleeing from a country where they would face the risk of death or imprisonment upon their repatriation has the right to seek political asylum in this country. Ther 11th circuit court of appeal just reaffirmed this right and stated that the right exists for anybody fitting the criteria, regardless of age. So the little Chinese child could claim political asylum and the law requires that the child be allowed to stay until the hearing.
The Clintons have decided that jurisprudence only applies when they agree with the result. They babble about the rule of law as they flout it. There are grave questions concerning the alleged warrant for the raid, whether the warrant specified the manner of entry, and whether those specifications were followed. There is also the question of who is representing Elian. Greg Craig is not. Mr. Craig is Juan Gonzolez' lawyer. It is a clear conflict of interest for Mr. Craig to claim to represent Elian since then Mr. Craig is effectively representing both plaintiff and defendent. Elian already has legal representation. That representation is being denied to him by his sequestration at Andrews. Another constitutional violation. The Clintons like to break the law wholesale.
So, yes, Elian is an illegal alien. But the minute he stepped foot on American soil the laws and rights that differentiate this country from Cuba (at least for now) went into effect. Those laws and rights are second to nothing, not presidential conniving, dictatorial demands, or even father's wishes. Elian has the right to due process. The Clintons are seeking to violate his rights. Period.