Question re: Curios & Relics FFL

J

Joe W

New member
There is a pre M17(mfg. 1953) for sale on internet. The seller states that a C&R is "OK" as this weapon is over 50 years old.
I just got my C&R and the way I read the book I received with the Lic., if the weapon is not on the C&R list a determination must first be made by the ATF as to whether the weapon qualifies as a Curio or Relic. ( Sec. 179.25 )
Am I correct ??
 
Nope,

Only in special cases does a determination need to be made... from the C&R "Book":

WHAT ARE CURIOS OR RELICS?
As set out in the regulations (27 CFR 178.11), curios or relics include firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1.) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
2.) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
3.) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.
 
C&R Still not sure

Still not sure. I read 27 CFR 178.11 which lists what is required for consideration, but I further read Section 11 of the "Firearms Curio or Relics List" which states :

Section 11: Firearms Classified As Curios Or Relics Under U.S.C. Chapter 44

The Bureau has determined that the following firearms are curios or relics as defined in 27 CFR 178.11 because they fall within one of the categories specified in the regulations.

You then have the list of ALL firearms that have been "determined" to be Curios or Relics.

This list does show a S&W K-22 Hand Ejector, cal. 22 LR, S/Ns 632132-696952 (no letter) but I don't see any other K-22s that have been classified as C or R.

It seems to me that the fact that a firearm is over 50 years old,( such as a K-22 ser. # 180xxx, made in 1953,) does not, in and by itself, mean that it can be traded as such by a holder of a C&R.

Spent to many years as a LEO to know it will do no good to claim "Ignorance of the Law". Would really like to know the straight scoop.
 
"The Bureau has determined that the following firearms are curios or relics as defined in 27 CFR 178.11 because they fall within one of the categories specified in the regulations."

This is a list of firearms that the Bureau has already determined are C&R and therefore won't argue with anyone about. It is not a list of all C&R firearms.
If the gun is at least 50 years old, it is by definition a C&R and you are good to go.

Tim
 
SALES OF FIREARMS TO LICENSED COLLECTORS OF CURIOS AND RELICS

Curio or relic firearms are defined as firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

OR

(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

OR

(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event [See 27 CFR 478.11 for information on requisite criteria ATF considers in rendering determinations under this subsection].
Click to expand...

ATF February 2005 FFL Newsletter
 
Joe W,

You sound as though you need to go to the source and contact your local branch ATF office and ask your question there... Perhaps they will render an opinion in writing... If not, you'll have to correspond with the Director, ATF Technical Branch, in Wash. DC.

Good luck, and let us know what you find out from ATF.
 
C&R FFL

Thanks alot for all your input. I really hate to deal with the Govt. any more than I have to. Think i'll just cross that bridge when I get to it.
 
All C&R (03) FFLs should have gotten the February 2005 FFL Newsletter from ATF. It cleary defines what is a C&R and what is not. You can't get a much straighter answer from the horse's mouth than that. It is even printed on their letterhead.
 
Hk',

Yep, I got one last week, but Joe W seemed reluctant to accept what we all had to say... so I thought perhaps he'd be best served with direct contact with the agency.

BTW, did you notice the bit about how they are changing the 4473s again? :rolleyes:
 
C&R FFL Question - no more

Not that I didn't believe anyone, just wanted to get a consensus of opinions, which I have gotten. I thank you all for the input. I did not see the news letter you mention but did see a copy of an older letter from ATF on CRUFFLER.COM which addressed the "50 Year Rule" and confirmed what you all were saying. Sorry if I sounded like a thick head or whatever, but as they say, better safe than sorry.
 
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