Question re 44 & 357 Mag components

M

Machineguntony

New member
I'm looking to start reloading 44 Mag and 357 Mag. I have everything I need, except for magnum primers.

Question about primers.

I also have lots of small rifle and large rifle primers.

Small rifle primers are the same as small pistol magnum primers, yes?

And large rifle primers are the same large pistol magnum primers?

Also, the Hodgdon site says 'Clays'. Is this the same as International? Online, it's called International Clays, but the bottle only says International.

I also have HP38 and HS6. What's everyone opinion on those powders for the stated cartridges. I'm not looking to buy new powders, as I still have plenty from when I stocked up (during the shortage).

I have Colt snake guns that need some usage. They've been sitting in my vault, all lonely and ignored.
 
I have not loaded for a 44 mag but do load 357. I use standard small pistol primers and have never used a magnum primer. For powders I've used hp38 and Titegroup. Hp38 burns a little dirtier but done me just as good as the Titegroup. I had also used some Unique which I loaded 45 colt with mostly. Have never used clays but am sure it's a powder a lot of cowboy shooters use. Around here anyway.
When I first started loading pistol cartridges 357 was my first. I had read somewhere on this site that small rifle is a little thicker than a small pistol primer. Someone else may know more but I only used pistol primers for 357 and same large pistol primers for the 45.
I'm sure reloaders with more expertise will have more answers for you. If this is first reloading hand gun cartridges , please weigh and double check each one. Easy to double charge and get hurt or worse. Good luck and have fun.
 
Small rifle primers are the same as small pistol magnum primers, yes?
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Not necessarily, should be close, but SR primers are used in many handgun loads. SR primers will almost always have hard cups, not all SPM primers are hard. A stock gun should handle them.

And large rifle primers are the same large pistol magnum primers?
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No, not interchangeable in most cases. LR primers are taller.

There are 3 'Clays technologies' powders:

Clays - handgun & shotgun, very fast. (very, very fast, be sure of your data)

International (AKA 'International Clays') - mostly shotgun

Universal (AKA 'Universal Clays' or 'Univ Clays' in some older data) - handgun & shotgun, medium speed similar to Unique.

HP38 works surprisingly well in 357 with 125 jacketed. 7.5 grains under a 125 JSP or TMJ one of my new favorite loads. HS-6 works better with 158 grainers. Both of those powders need a magnum primer (or SR) and a good crimp.
 
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ac is right about the primers.
Think you might experience failures to fire using the harder cup rifle primers.
Could always try a few and find out.

Not enough room on the web to explain the fiasco that was the Clays name saga.
Three very different powders.
International is not the same as Clays or Universal.
Universal is similar to Unique in useage, but I've never seen any handgun data for International.

.357 or .44 Magnum.
Neither HP-38 or HS-6 are powders designed for the magnum loadings of either cartridge, although of the two,
HS-6 might be more appropriate for higher velocity loadings.
Both will work at low to mid-range velocities though.

JT
 
Another +1 for the powder differences; and to add more confusion to the mix - the NEW Clays of recent Canadian manufacture is NOT the same as the older Australian made stuff, so older data with new powder does NOT apply.
 
To the OP: you do not need to use Magnum primers for any magnum load unless the loading manual calls for a magnum primer. If you're new to reloading, it's confusing that the .357mag and the .44mag DO NOT need magnum primers for all the different powders used in different loads. The powders that call for magnum primers aren't just because they're being used in a cartridge called "magnum". It's because the powders themselves have burning characteristics that require a hot primer to ignite them efficently. Many loads for the .357mag and the .44mag do not require the use of magnum primers. As stated above, the large pistol and rifle primers are of different heights. Small pistol and small rifle primers are the same dimension in all respects. Never use small pistol primers in small rifle loads. They have different cup thicknesses/hardness.
 
Some load data oversimplifies the primer spec and simply says Magnum in the header before listing powders. Few powders need it though, and I can attest that HS-6 is one that burns more completely with Magnums. HP-38/W231 I have never noticed calling for Magnums.

I don't shoot full power 357 but don't shoot lite either except in my SASS rifle or smaller revolvers. HS-6 is a good load and at 9-10 grains with 158 lead will definitely be a magnum shooting experience. That would be in reference to a Ruger GP100 or S&W 686. I don't have a 627 (N-frame) or .357 Blackhawk so leave the full power stuff to others. I did make and try some ammo with H110 but was happy to save the powder for 41 and 44 Magnums and jacketed bullets.
 
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I like both HP-38 and HS-6 in the .357 Mag. A favorite .357 158 gr. practice load of mine uses HS-6 with a small magnum pistol primer. I have used both standard and magnum pistol primers with light HP-38 loads without noticing much difference.

I didn't care for HP-38 in the 44 Mag., and don't recall trying HS-6 in it. 2400 and H110 work well for heavier 44 Mag. loads. For practice loads, I often use Unique in the 44.
 
Changes to Hodgdon's Clays powder were mentioned above. I would also add that Universal is now made in Canada as well and it too has changed. It's now a dull pink color and doesn't meter as smoothly thru my Uniflow as the Australian Universal did. However, Hodgdon's loading data for Universal appears to be unchanged.
 
However, Hodgdon's loading data for Universal appears to be unchanged.
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But, if I'm not mistaken, I believe the density might be different so checking cases might yield a different look.
 
As to primers, a primer is chosen to give good uniform ignition for a given powder. Your very best source of which primer to use comes from your reloading manual or data source. For example .44 Remington Magnum the Hornady 9th suggest a WLP (Winchester Large Pistol) for all the powders listed. The WLP is interesting because Winchester Large Pistol does not offer a Standard and Magnum but rather a single large pistol primer. The 357 Magnum does call for a WSPM (Winchester Small Pistol Magnum) in the same manual. My older Speer #12 manual calls out a CCI 350 Large Pistol Magnum for the 44 Magnum for the suggested powder loads then have listed. The 357 Magnum reflects either a CCI 500 or 550 Small Pistol Standard or Small Pistol Magnum based on the powder. That is a good example of the primer chosen to ignite uniformly the suggested powder. My suggestion is work from a credible reloading manual. That said, no, you do not need the exact suggested primer but you do not use a small rifle primer when a small pistol primer is called out. Yes, there are cases where certain handgun loads will call out a rifle primer.

Just because certain primers share the same dimensions between pistol and rifle (small pistol/small rifle) does not make them interchangeable, you want to remember that. Large rifle and large pistol are a different height. A very good source of primer dope is a call or email to the guys making them. I have always found customer service at CCI for example to be excellent. Emails are answered in a few days and many times a phone call will answer your questions in minutes.

Besides the charge (cake mix) there are other differences in primers to include the cup alloy mix, the cup thickness and the angle of the anvil used. You may want to keep that in mind.

How you seat a primer is also important, you want to seat a primer till it "bottoms out" in the cup. Generally if you place a straight edge (business card) over the seated primer you will see some light, generally 0.003 to 0.005". The primer will generally seat below the case head.

Start low and work up your loads and enjoy.

Ron
 
Man, if you have Colt snake guns that are neglected, you should sell the hell out of them. With the proceeds you could buy a couple fantastic S&W revolvers and a slew of powder, primers and bullets and maybe a small truck to use for range trips.

Haha, but seriously, there's only a few handgun powders that require magnum primers and many powders work well with either magnum or standard primers.

In CCI primers, we have collected some data that strongly suggest a small rifle non-magnum and a small pistol magnum are indeed the same primer.

H110/W296 demands a magnum primer, many other powders I use offer more velocity with a magnum primer (AA#9, 300-MP) and then a great magnum powder (2400) tends to gain nothing whatsoever from a magnum primer and works better with a regular one.
 
During the shortages of the last 8 years, tried many powders in the 357 and 44mags. Standardized on Universal for 80% velocity target loads and now after 000s of loads shot am well satisfied.
Still use h 110 or w 296 or AA#9 for top loads.
I Do not use rifle primers in handgu loads.
 
Thanks for advice fellas.

I haven't reloaded revolver rounds in like 20 years. Although, 357 was the first round I ever reloaded, way back in the 90s.

I reload a ton of 9, 223, and 308.
 
You can use HP-38 for target loads in both the 357 and 44 magnums. You can use standard pistol primers with HP-38. It will leave some soot unless you use near maximum loads. Even with maximum loads HP-38 produces fairly tame loads.
HS6 is a medium burn rate powder in the magnums and will yield warmer loads but still well below true magnum velocities. It's good for target and plinking loads and easier in the recoil department than H110 which will give you the highest velocities (Lil Gun may give higher velocities in the 44).
 
i use hp38 with large pistol magnum primers in 44mag and 45acp. mag primers arent necessary, but technically hp38 is a ball powder, and might suggest the use of a mag primer. i also use h110, which does require mag primers, so thats all i buy... fewer components to confuse.
 
Basic, ground floor info for handloading large volume -magnum- revolver rounds... but NOT as common knowledge as it absolutely should be:

When you make MAX published loads in any magnum revolver round with a fast burning pistol powder (there are many, HP-38/w231 is just one of them) in comparison with a proper slow-burning powder (AA#9, 2400, H110, 300-MP) the absolute result, every single time is, without a doubt:

--a cartridge that lacks the bullet velocity, usually by 100 or more FPS
--a round that lacks the recoil
--a round that lacks the sound, it's depth & volume
--a charge that barely HALF fills the case
--a loaded round that gives just as much peak pressure

...it simply peaks at a very inopportune time.

So you get all the stress on your gun and brass but you miss the bullet velocity, recoil and experience of a proper magnum round.

You get to save a penny on your powder charge and you can keep less powders on hand.
 
For .44 Magnum I use only H110/W296 (they are the same powder, just different packaging). There is no more perfect powder for it, but you can't reduce the load much so unless you want near full-power loads you'll have to use something else.

Some manuals say use magnum primers with H110, others don't mention it at all. I use magnum primers because I have them, but never noticed any difference when using standard primers. Maybe it makes a difference in very cold weather.
 
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