Question ragarding handgun sales out of state.

R

Rainbow Six

New member
An example would be selling through the classified forums on TFL. What are the applicable laws when an individual sells to an individual from another state and ships the handgun? Does simply shipping my FFL to your FFL cover your a$$ legally?

Thanks,

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For Sale: SIG P220 - see handgun classified forum.

***************************
Georgia TFL'ers get together:
May 20, 2000-From 3pm to 6pm
http://www.wolfcreek-gun.com
***************************

R6...aka...Chris
 
Regarding federal laws, only one FFL needs to be involved. The seller can send the gun directly to an FFL in the buyers state of residence. (Some FFLs insist that two FFLs are required, but that is not true.) Doing so will cover you in regards to federal law. The FFL(s) involved will typically require a small fee to cover their paperwork.

In regards to state law, the FFL in the buyer's state should up on the state laws to ensure that they are followed. For example, here in Taxachusetts, the FFL will have you fill out the state registration form FA-10 and send it into the local gestapo.

Make sure that you do follow the laws regarding shipping of firearms. Handguns cannot be shipped via USMail unless you are an FFL (and then it can only go to certain destinations). When you ship by common carrier (FedEx, UPS, etc.) you must inform the carrier that the contents is a firearm. I personally use FedEX (even before UPS stupid rules).

Realize that I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, this isn't legal advice, and it is worth exactly as much as you paid for it ;)

Jared
 
Also be careful of certain state rules. For example: No high caps or assault rifles to Kalifornia, New Jersey, etc etc etc
 
1911:
In addition to being a LEO, I am also an FFL holder. Your advice to this person about needing only one FFL holder in interstate transfers is incorrect. I quote:
Gun Control Act of 1968
Section 922. Unlawful Acts.
(a)It shall be unlawful-
(1) for any person-
(A) except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, to engage in the business of importing,manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or in the course of such business to ship, transport, or receive any firearm in interstate or foreign commerce.

This is pretty clear that:
a- You need to be a dealer to ship a firearm to another state in interstate commerce, and
b- You need to be a dealer to receive said firearm in interstate commerce. I've been going around with a dealer from another state who wants me to accept a firearm from him with no proof that he's a dealer...no thanks!
The exemption from this is that a firearm owner can ship a firearm to a gunsmith or manufacturer for repair, and the gunsmith/manufacturer can ship it back, without having to go through a dealer.
If anyone has a question about this, post them, we'll deal with it here on the forum .
 
tcsd: I believe that your interpretation of that law is incorrect. I just called up the ATF office in Boston and spoke with Ms. Karen Reese. She said that I could ship a handgun to an FFL out of state.

I recommend that you call up your local ATF office and speak with an agent.

Also, I went to the ATF web site and found this:
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faqb.htm#b1

(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if the buyer is not prohibited by law from receiving or possessing a firearm, or to a licensee in any State.

[18 U.S.C 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 178.29]

also:

(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the mail?

A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his own State or to a licensee in any State. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. A nonlicensee may not transfer a handgun to a non licensed resident of another State.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A) and 922(e), 27 CFR 178.31]

If we take a closer look at the law you quoted:

a)It shall be unlawful
(1) for any person-
(A) except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or in the course of such business to ship, transport, or receive any firearm in interstate or foreign commerce.

The key phrases here are "to engage in the business...or in the course of such business."

Selling a single gun to an FFL is not "engaging in the business...of dealing in firearms." Therefore, sending a single handgun interstate is not "... in the course of such business [i.e., the business of dealing in firearms] to ship ... any firearm in interstate ... commerce."

Again, please call up your local ATF office and tell us what they say.

Jared
 
Ive done several transactions in the past few weeks from CA to in state and out of state buyers. Play it safe, go FFL to FFL and you are covered legally. All my transactions have gone without a hitch that way, shortcuts may not be worth the grief.

[This message has been edited by Zensho (edited May 02, 2000).]
 
The advice that you only need an FFL at the receiving end is correct. As an FFL I bought many guns from out of state both from individuals and at auctions. When I run into an FFL that does not accept a shipment from an individual and claims that is the law a quick complaint call to the regional ATF office to have one of the agents call and 'splain it to them usually does the trick. If the FFL gets pissy mention to ATF that you are concerned that a person that uninformed of the laws that regulate them means that they may have other problems and that and audit may be in order.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tcsd1236:
In addition to being a LEO, I am also an FFL holder. Your advice to this person about needing only one FFL holder in interstate transfers is incorrect.[/quote]

I believe you are incorrect on this point. A unlicensed person, i.e. anyone, can ship a firearm to a licensee (FFL) in any state for "any legal reason". Clearly, one of the legal reasons is to transfer it to that FFL. Referring to the 2000 issue of Federal Firearms Regulations, page 308.

"A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her
State, if the buyer is not prohibited by law from receiving or possessing a
firearm, or to a licensee in any State. A firearm other than a curio or relic
may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector."

I don't know about others here, but that seems pretty clear to me!


[This message has been edited by johnwill (edited May 02, 2000).]
 
Thanks for all the replies. I think shipping to a FFL in the buyer's state sounds sufficient. I may call the local ATF office and inquire just for kicks.

Thanks again,


------------------
For Sale: SIG P220 - see handgun classified forum.

***************************
Georgia TFL'ers get together:
May 20, 2000-From 3pm to 6pm
http://www.wolfcreek-gun.com
***************************

R6...aka...Chris
 
OK OK OK
'Scuse me while I scrape the egg off my face.
Thank you for all setting me straight in this regard...
1911...your suggestion about contacting ATF was ok;my experience with calling them in either of my jobs has been that you get transferred 3-5 times and have to leave messages over a couple of days to get a response. Plus, the people at the NYC office seem to be on the rude side. Perhaps you have better luck with the Boston office in that regard. I've always been leery of calling them for advice since the general drift I've heard is that the same question to different agents can often get you conflicting answers.
jeff- it's not a matter of ignorance of the laws, thank you. I've read and re-read the book often enough, and tried to keep up with the changes by reading the updates ATF sends us. In this regard, I believed the advice I gave was correct, as evidenced by the section I quoted. This was also advice passed along to me by other dealers years ago when I started in this line of work.
The way I see it, I've got 3 years to go til I hang up the tin and go into this gun thing full time, if Clinton leaves us a job to go into. The last thing I need is to run afoul of ATf on a stupid technical glitch. But I stand corrected on this topic.
Rainbow, good luck with the transfer.
Once again to everyone, thanks for the correction; we all learn from each other here, even when we THINK we know the right answer.
 
This is a grey issue and the fallout for some people has been a lot of hastles

Make sure it is ok with the recieving FFL to sign in a handgun from a non FFL shipper

The BATF has been kinda heavy handed of late and many FFLs are in complete CYA mode

Even if they do not have to have an FFL send the gun, many have a policy of only accepting ones from FFLs. They fear losing their livelyhood over paperwork problems, so they demand only FFLs ship them guns.

dZ
 
tcsd:

No problem. Actually, I did have very good luck in calling the BATF here in Boston. They answered on the first ring and the person who answered was the one who answered my question. No transfers or voice-mail.
She was quite polite and helpful. YMMV.

It doesn't surprise me about getting different answers from different agents, however. Gun laws are complex and getting worse every year. The best thing from a CYA perspective would be to send the question in writing and ask for a written answer.

Jared
 
FWIW, it's a common misconception that you need an FFL on each end. I'm sure some is due to the dealers figuring that there's an extra $20 in each transfer if they convince people that they need them at both ends. :)
 
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