Question on Transferring Firearm across state lines

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Rothdel

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Want to validate my thought process here.

I have a good friend of mine that has always coveted one of my pistols and I have decided to gift it to him. He lives in a different state. I was (am still) planning on mailing this to his LGS to do the transfer. I checked with my LGS to validate that I had all the steps down and to see if they would mail for me in case the receiving LGS did not want to receive from an individual as opposed to a FFL holder. I was told since no money was changing hands I could just give the firearm to my friend while he is here visiting and he was fine to transport home (he is flying so would have to do the checked bagadge deal).

This seems wrong to me and I could not find anything that changed my thought process but wanted to get everyone else's opinions. Am I living under a rock and this is now ok?
 
Rothdel said:
I was told since no money was changing hands I could just give the firearm to my friend while he is here visiting and he was fine to transport home
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No. This would be a felony. It doesn't matter if it's a gift or a sale; those are both transfers under federal law.

With a few narrow exceptions (primarily when a gun is transferred upon death through a will or bequest), private transfers must occur between two residents of the same state and the transfer must occur in that state. If they are residents of different states, the transfer must go through an FFL. If it's a handgun or an "other", the transfer must be done at an FFL in the transferee's home state. If it's a long gun, the transfer can take place at an FFL in either state, provided the long gun is legal in both states.

Here are the relevant parts of federal law found in 18 USC 922(a)(3), 18 USC 922(a)(5), and 18 USC 922(b)(3):

18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful—
[...]

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph
(A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

(B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and

(C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;
[...]

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
[...]

b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --
[...]

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph
(A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and

(B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
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10-4 that pretty much sums up my current understanding. What my LGS told me seemed a bit too good to be true. Thank you for the reply.
 
Rothdel said:
...I was (am still) planning on mailing this to his LGS to do the transfer.....
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You can't legally mail a handgun, i. e., you can't legally ship a handgun through the U. S. Mail using the USPS. Only an FFl may legally mail a handgun.

You, as a non-licensee, must ship using FedEx or UPS. See this thread.

Rothdel said:
...I was told since no money was changing hands I could just give the firearm to my friend while he is here visiting....
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Considering that's been illegal since 1968, it's amazing how many FFLs don't understand this. Here's the whole thing laid out :
Federal law on interstate firearms transfer has been in effect for over 45 years. It was enacted by the Gun Control Act of 1968.

  • Under federal law, any transfer of a gun (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL. And a handgun must be transferred through an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. The transfer must comply with all the requirements of the State in which the transfer is being done as well as all federal formalities (e. g., completion of a 4473, etc.). There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.

  • In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. You may obtain a handgun in a State other than your State of residence, BUT it must be shipped by the transferor to an FFL in your State of residence to transfer the handgun to you.

  • In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complies with the law of the transferee's State of residence.C] In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.

  • There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.

  • The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).

  • Here's what the statutes say:
    18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts

    (a) It shall be unlawful—
    ...

    (3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph

    (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

    (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and

    (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;​

    ...

    (5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to

    (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

    (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​

    ....

    (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --
    ...

    (3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph

    (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and

    (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​

    ...
    Click to expand...
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No problem, I missed the part where he mentioned he was planning to mail it, so your post was definitely helpful. And I'll admit that I cut-and-pasted that law from one of your previous posts anyway ;).
 
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One point of clarification. I misstated the mailing portion as I was aware of the need to use UPS or Fed Ex for handguns.

Can i arrange transportation using those companies IE i send directly to the FFL in my friends home state that will be performing the background check or do I need to use an FFL in my home state to send to an FFL in his home state?
 
Rothdel said:
Can i arrange transportation using those companies IE i send directly to the FFL in my friends home state that will be performing the background check or do I need to use an FFL in my home state to send to an FFL in his home state?
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Yes, as long as you follow the appropriate shipping rules, federal law allows you to send the gun to an FFL anywhere in the US (and I'm not aware of any state that prohibits this). However, many FFLs won't take incoming firearm shipments from individuals as a matter of policy since the sender doesn't always include the proper information necessary for the FFL to book the gun in.

At our shop we accept incoming shipments of firearms from individuals, and we ask that the sender includes a copy of his driver's license so we can book the gun in properly, along with their phone number in case we need to contact them.

Keep in mind that it might be cheaper to send it through an FFL. Even though they'll charge you a transfer fee, they will be able to ship it much cheaper than you can, which could offset the cost.
 
What my LGS told me seemed a bit too good to be true.
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Assuming there wasn't some kind of miscommunication, it sounds like you need to find a more reliable LGS.
Those guys are likely to land you in the pokey.
 
What if someone moves to another state, keeping their guns? And do all the guns have to be re-registered in the new state?
 
What if someone moves to another state, keeping their guns? And do all the guns have to be re-registered in the new state?
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It depends on where you move to. Few states require guns to be registered. Most register pistols. Some register none.
 
dpadams6 said:
What if someone moves to another state, keeping their guns?
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That's fine as far as federal law is concerned. If you're moving interstate with your guns there's no transfers involved.
dpadams6 said:
And do all the guns have to be re-registered in the new state?
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Only if you're moving to one of the handful of states that have registration. There is no registration of regular non-NFA firearms under federal law.

When I moved from Texas to Washington, I took my guns with me and I didn't need to do anything special with them when I got here. Like most states, there is no registration here in Washington.
 
g.willikers said:
Assuming there wasn't some kind of miscommunication, it sounds like you need to find a more reliable LGS.
Those guys are likely to land you in the pokey.
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Wait a second here. So a random person behind the counter at an LGS gave incorrect legal advice on a subject outside the LGS's scope of business, and you're recommending he find another LGS? It always amazes me how many people there are who expect every person at a gun shop to be an expert on all manners of firearms law.

Do you expect your mechanic to know all the details of federal and state law regarding vehicle manufacturing regulations? Do you expect a computer salesman to know all FCC regulations regarding wireless Internet access? I'm guessing the answer to both of those is, "No." So why would you expect a gun shop salesman to know the details of federal law in regards to interstate private transfers, something that is beyond the scope of the shop's business?

It always surprises me how many people call our shop asking all sorts of details regarding firearms laws that are outside the scope of our business. Just the other day someone emailed me about travelling interstate with a firearm by RV. I advised him to look into the Safe Passage provision of the 1986 Firearm Owners' Protection Act, but I wonder how many gun shop employees around the country have even heard of that law.

In my opinion, if you expect your LGS to give you 100% accurate legal advice, then that's your first mistake. The second mistake would be following that advice without looking into it further. Luckily, the OP in this thread did neither.
 
Theohazard Quote:
Originally Posted by g.willikers
Assuming there wasn't some kind of miscommunication, it sounds like you need to find a more reliable LGS.
Those guys are likely to land you in the pokey.
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Wait a second here. So a random person behind the counter at an LGS gave incorrect legal advice on a subject outside the LGS's scope of business, and you're recommending he find another LGS?
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Every licensed gun dealer in America should know what ATF regs have to say about the interstate transfer of a firearm. Not only is it within the scope of business, it IS the business.




It always amazes me how many people there are who expect every person at a gun shop to be an expert on all manners of firearms law.
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When a dealer is that ignorant, it is embarrassing, not amazing.



Do you expect your mechanic to know all the details of federal and state law regarding vehicle manufacturing regulations? Do you expect a computer salesman to know all FCC regulations regarding wireless Internet access? I'm guessing the answer to both of those is, "No." So why would you expect a gun shop salesman to know the details of federal law in regards to interstate private transfers, something that is beyond the scope of the shop's business?
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What if your mechanic told you that it was legal to roll back your odometer?:rolleyes:
What if the computer sales man told you it was legal to block your neighbors WiFi?:rolleyes:

Your analogy is flawed. Your local mechanic has nothing to do with vehicle manufacturing and the computer sales man has nothing to do with wireless internet "access"............but a gun store has EVERYTHING to do with commerce in firearms.

The advice from the gun shop if followed, would make the OP and his buyer felons. A gun shop that is giving such advice is reckless at best.





It always surprises me how many people call our shop asking all sorts of details regarding firearms laws that are outside the scope of our business. Just the other day someone emailed me about travelling interstate with a firearm by RV. I advised him to look into the Safe Passage provision of the 1986 Firearm Owners' Protection Act, but I wonder how many gun shop employees around the country have even heard of that law.
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I would agree that that is outside the scope of a retail gun business, but you did guide him to a place where he could educate himself on that part of firearms law.



In my opinion, if you expect your LGS to give you 100% accurate legal advice, then that's your first mistake. The second mistake would be following that advice without looking into it further. Luckily, the OP in this thread did neither.
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True.
But in this case the advice given would have been a felony. That means educating the dealer or avoiding him altogether.
 
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dogtown tom said:
Every licensed gun dealer in America should know what ATF regs have to say about the interstate transfer of a firearm. Not only is it within the scope of business, it IS the business.
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I'm not talking about the FFL holder themselves (who should definitely know that part of the law), I'm talking about the average person behind the counter at a gun shop. That person should know how to conduct the services provided by the shop, but knowing the laws regarding private transfers probably isn't part of their job. Unless they're in a UBC state, private transfers aren't part of an FFL's scope of business.

To me, the biggest mistake wasn't that this person at the shop didn't know the law, it's simply that they didn't convey that fact to the customer and instead gave bad information. As a gun shop manager, I often deal with new employees who know very little about gun laws. One thing I stress very strongly is that they should always grab a manager when asked any legal question like that. And that's because people will walk up to the new kid behind the counter who is in his first week with us, and start asking him all sorts of legal questions involving self-defense law, firearm transport law, etc.

dogtown tom said:
Your analogy is flawed. Your local mechanic has nothing to do with vehicle manufacturing and the computer sales man has nothing to do with wireless internet "access"............but a gun store has EVERYTHING to do with commerce in firearms.
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But a gun store has nothing to do with private sales (unless they're in a UBC state). Should all gun shop employees be expected to know the details of federal law when it comes to private sales? Sure, a gun shop employee should know how to handle out-of-state transfers, but it's not surprising that not all employees would know all the details of federal law surrounding those transfers.

Tom, I'm not saying that it's fine for a shop to give out bad information like this, I'm simply saying that it's not surprising. Gun laws are complicated and many gun shop employees aren't very knowledgeable. I wouldn't ask a random mechanic at Jiffy Lube questions about federal law regarding vehicle repair, and I wouldn't ask a random salesman at Best Buy questions regarding federal law regarding sales of electronic goods.

With inexperienced gun shop employees, it takes long enough to teach them how to be proficient at all the aspects of their job. I don't expect all my employees to know the laws that don't directly apply to their job. However I do expect them to not give out bad information, which is why I stress so strongly that they ask for help when presented with questions they don't know. And that's something the guy at the OP's shop should have done.

dogtown tom said:
But in this case the advice given would have been a felony. That means educating the dealer or avoiding him altogether.
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I can agree with that. In this case the OP should talk to a manager and let them know they have employees giving bad legal advice. A good shop will handle it well. A bad shop won't. That will let him know if it's a shop he should keep visiting.
 
What's wrong with a mere clerk saying, "I don't know?" instead of giving out really bad information.
Sounds like the result of poor employee training.
Whose fault is that?
I'd mistrust anything said at that particular store.
The same as avoiding a local car mechanic who displayed ignorance about his chosen profession.
These folks weren't drafted, they chose their jobs.
No much excuse for not knowing their jobs or at least admitting it when they don't.
 
I would expect a conscientious owner of a LGS, as the FFL in charge and liable for everything happening in his domain, would have trained his counter staff to correctly handle sales and consignments of firearms according to the federal laws, and if any question beyond their training arose, to bump it up to the FFL.

That would be a prudent and reasonable course of business.

Like it or not, an FFL is a federal licensee, and his employees are his agents acting on his behalf. The public is going to give that license a cachet or authority that we can all agree may not be appropriate or deserved, but there it is. It's incumbent on the FFL to take his responsibilities to the public seriously.
 
JimPage said:
It depends on where you move to. Few states require guns to be registered. Most register pistols. Some register none.
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Respectfully, while I'm not sufficiently educated on this to disagree, I don't accept this at face value.

First, "most" means a percentage well over half. We have 50 states. I'm not sure what would constitute "most" of 50, but to me that would probably mean 40 or more.

Second, the OP asked about moving to a state with firearms he already owns. I very much doubt that "most" states require people moving into the state with personally-owned firearms to register their handguns.

If you know which states have such a requirement, please post the list so I'll know which states not to consider for retirement.
 
Can i arrange transportation using those companies IE i send directly to the FFL in my friends home state that will be performing the background check or do I need to use an FFL in my home state to send to an FFL in his home state?
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It is legal for you to ship a gun to an FFL for transfer.
Practically speaking, it depends on how hysterical a shipping clerk you run into.
Some will not. Do you want to show her supervisor the law and the common carrier's own regs and argue it out?
Or just take it down to FLD and ask him nicely?
Hint, he can ship it a lot cheaper than you can, even if he charges you a fee for the service.
 
Or just take it down to FLD and ask him nicely?
Hint, he can ship it a lot cheaper than you can, even if he charges you a fee for the service.
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BINGO

OP, if you ship via Fedex/UPS, they will insist on overnight to the tune of about $80, give or take.

Your FFL can use the USPS priority box that runs about $12, give or take.
 
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