question on the 38 special round

S

SteelToe

New member
I know there have been many (is the 38 enough threads) This is not one.

I am just a bit confused on how to tell which rounds are more powerful. I see that 9mm go over 1000 fps regularly but 38 specials are around 800 or 900. From what I understand they are the exact same projectile right? And the casing is so much longer in the 38 special I would think the 38 would be more powerful. Like when you see a longer 357 mag next to a 38 special.

My dad said it has to do with grain count and how compact the grain is? My 9mm winchester ball rounds are 115 grain and my winchester 38 special wad cutters are 130. He said that for how much longer the brass is and only gaining 15 grain it is likely the same power or could even be less.

So without getting into some big debate about 38 specials as there is already a 5 page one :) could someone just comment on 38 special and 38 special +p vs that of the average 9mm round. FPS, penetration, so on. Thanks all!
 
.38 specials are not loaded to maximum pressure because many older .38 revolvers cannot handle them. Some of the newer +Ps rival 9mm in terms of velocity.

For full-throttle .38s, you can choose the .357 magnum.

~Ichiro
 
The power order is:

.38 Special < .38 Special +P < 9mm < 9mm +P < .357 Magnum < .357 Magnum +P

All the same diameter projectile. Bullet weights have a little wider range for the revolver cartridges.
 
thanks guys

Thanks everyone. It makes sence now. So it was said that some +p 38 specials rival that of the 9 mm. is there anyway it coudl surpas it? I understand having to keep 38 specials low due to use in older guns and so on but if a gun is rated for +p couldnt you then use all that extra brass and really compact it to the extent of a 9mm but using all that extra brass really pack a good punch? Or is that just a 357 mag? :)
 
it was said that some +p 38 specials rival that of the 9 mm.
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Other than Corbon's round, I don't know of any that do. The 9mm doesn't have huge case volume, but has much higher pressure limits in its' spec than the .38 Special - higher also than the .38+P.

...is that just a 357 mag?
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The .357 Magnum now, has more case volume than the .38 Special, *and* allows higher pressures than the 9mm. Boom!
 
"but if a gun is rated for +p couldnt you then use all that extra brass and really compact it to the extent of a 9mm but using all that extra brass really pack a good punch?"

I would think so, but maybe a 38+p revolver cannot handle cartridges with that much power on a regular basis. I believe most .38 special +P guns are intended to shoot mostly regular 38s, with occasional 38 +p use. With the preponderance of .357 Mag revolvers available, perhaps there's no real motivation to develop the .38 cartridge more fully. After all, gun and ammo makers need to respond to the buying public, and the current loadings in .38+p are not fun to shoot in airweight revolvers. For owners of .357 mag revolvers, there's plenty of power available in common cartridges.

Since the .38/.357 are very popular cartridges for revolver owners in this country, I expect, in the future, to see ever higher-powered .38s and a wider assortment of reduced-load .357 hollowpoints for self-defense. Personally, I'm hoping for a wider assortment of reduced-recoil, low-flash .357 mag ammo.

~Ichiro
 
CarbineCaleb's power order is correct. I just want to add that the .38 special case is longer than that of 9mm but it is not full of gunpowder - not even half in most cases. From what I udnerstand, the .38 special and the .45 LC were both designed initially for the black powder which has more volume than the smokeless powders of today, and thus the need for larger cases.
 
CarbineCaleb - you said "The .357 Magnum now, has more case volume than the .38 Special, *and* allows higher pressures than the 9mm. Boom!" but I'm not sure that's true. I think the SAAMI limit for .357 these days is 35,000psi which is the same as the limit for standard pressure 9mm. 9mm+P, I believe, has an upper limit of 38,500psi. I agree the .357 is the more powerful caliber, but I'm not sure that pressure is the operative factor in that. Of course, if you mean "loading", then sure, .357 can be loaded to higher pressures.
 
Laz: Hmmm - well I may have misspoken then! :o I don't have easy access to the SAAMI specs, but I just used the ammoguide site, and looked at the range of posted loads, figuring that all must fall within specs.


So, to be more accurate then:

Highest pressure loads posted at AmmoGuide:
.357 Magnum: 43200 cup
9mm: 32600 cup
.38 Special: 19800 cup

Case volumes posted at AmmoGuide (in gr water):
.357 Magnum: 27.0
9mm: 15.0
.38 Special: 24.0
 
If they (Corbon) ever develops a .357 mag hollowpoint cartridge rated at around 450 ft/lbs. of energy that is easy to shoot out of my Ruger SP-101, then I'm sold. I will stop searching for more powerful snubby ammo at that point.

As it is, my Ruger is loaded with Corbon 125-grain 38s measured at 351 ft/lbs, and they are easier to shoot than 158-gr lead round-point practice ammo rated at 200 ft/lbs. They're really, really fun to shoot, actually.

I admit that the 9mm delivers more energy and is probably a more effective round. However, I firmly believe that a DAO revolver is a much better choice for a self-defense weapon, even with the accompanying loss in power, due to its simplicity.

With that said, we revolver users are stuck mostly with 38+Ps at 250 ft/lbs. or 357s at 500+ ft/lbs. That's a big gap to fill in. High-powered 38s and low-powered 357s are just awesome for people like us.

~Ichiro
 
You can load a .38 spl case to equal a .357 magnum cartridge. Of course you should shoot it in a .357 magnum handgun. A +P .38 spl load only utilizes half the potential you can load the cartridge to. The cases have the strength for higher pressures.
 
My dad said it has to do with grain count and how compact the grain is? My 9mm winchester ball rounds are 115 grain and my winchester 38 special wad cutters are 130. He said that for how much longer the brass is and only gaining 15 grain it is likely the same power or could even be less.
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Stop, stop, stop!!!
The grains you are refering to is the weight (mass) of the bullet (yes, the projectile coming out of the barrel).
Power, in the form of energy, is simply a function of mass and velocity (mv^2/2=E). What gives that energy have been discussed above.
 
Well there is always the 38 +P+ or the old S&W 38/44 High Velocity rounds to choose from. Just thought I would muddy the waters a little. :p
 
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".357 Mag. +P"

Say WHAT?

I like to think that I keep my ear pretty close to the ground when it comes to ammo development, but this is a new one on me.
 
Old Shooter,

A .38 loaded to 450 ft/lbs and relatively comfortable to shoot from a snub would be just fine with ME, but then my snub is a .357 Mag. I don't think the anyone will load them this powerful in a .38 case.

~Ichiro
 
While a .38 Special has less velocity and maybe even less energy, there is one other thing to take into account: Bullet weight. Some of the best .38 loads utilize 158grn bullets giving better penetration than the lighter rounds. The .38 Special's cartridge case has a lot of empty space in it. The round was, I believe, the last one ever developed for black powder. When the switchover to smokeless was made it was discovered that far less powder was required to make the bullet to the same thing. Also, you may try Cor-Bon 110grn +P's as they nip at the heels of light .357 Magnum Ballistics.
 
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