I don't know anything about these so bear with me. If I get an upper that has a 14.5" barrel with a 1 1/2" flash suppressor, for a total exceeding 16", then put it on lower that has had the stock "thumb-holed", this should be legal, should it not (no more than one offending item, in this case the flash suppressor)???
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question on legality of ar-15 combo
- Thread starter Futo Inu
- Start date
Daren Thompson
New member
I beleive that BATF has concluded that an AR style rifle must have a pistol grip. The gun can not be fitted for a thumbhole and then another EVIL feature added.
Hope this helps
Later
Daren
Hope this helps
Later
Daren
Libertarian
New member
My buddy, a gunsmith and dealer, told me that so long as the "compensator" was permanently fixed to the barrel (wielded, not pinned or threaded) it should pass BATF muster. He also said that the most BATF agents are a bunch of psycho, baby bunny killers and you couldn't trust anything they say. Get it in writing. (and still don't trust them 100%.)
this is the best definition of the ban i have read, it is from http://jpar15.com/customer.htm
On 9/14/94 we were advised by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms
that the Crime Bill does not allow any lower receiver to be completed into
an "assault rifle" as it is defined in the Bill. It does not matter when the
lower receiver was manufactured, only when it was assembled as part of
a complete rifle. In other words, you cannot buy a so-called "pre-ban
lower" and assemble it into a rifle that meets the definition of an "assault
rifle" as described in the Crime Bill.
After September 14, 1994, no lower receiver can be completed to form a
"semi-automatic" rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable
magazine and has two or more of the following features:
A.a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath
the action of the weapon
B.a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to
accommodate a flash suppressor (a recoil reducing
device is considered acceptable)
C.a folding or telescoping stock
D.a bayonet mount
E.a grenade launcher
What this means is that you may have a post ban ("post ban" meaning
assembled after 9/14/94) AR-15 rifle which has only one of the listed
features, and that is the pistol grip. It was previously believed by most
people in the industry that "thumb-hole" configuration stocks were a way
to technically eliminate the "pistol grip" feature on a rifle. However, BATF
has now interpreted the Crime Bill in such a way that it isn't possible to
construct an AR-15 type rifle without a pistol grip regardless of the stock
configuration. Because there is no way to eliminate the pistol grip feature,
you may not have a flash suppressor or a muzzle that is "threaded to
accept a currently manufactured flash suppressor." A compensator or
recoil reducing device is acceptable as long as it is attached permanently
by pinning, welding or high temperature silver solder or attached with a
thread pattern for which there is no flash suppressor made.
[This message has been edited by dZ (edited November 11, 1999).]
On 9/14/94 we were advised by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms
that the Crime Bill does not allow any lower receiver to be completed into
an "assault rifle" as it is defined in the Bill. It does not matter when the
lower receiver was manufactured, only when it was assembled as part of
a complete rifle. In other words, you cannot buy a so-called "pre-ban
lower" and assemble it into a rifle that meets the definition of an "assault
rifle" as described in the Crime Bill.
After September 14, 1994, no lower receiver can be completed to form a
"semi-automatic" rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable
magazine and has two or more of the following features:
A.a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath
the action of the weapon
B.a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to
accommodate a flash suppressor (a recoil reducing
device is considered acceptable)
C.a folding or telescoping stock
D.a bayonet mount
E.a grenade launcher
What this means is that you may have a post ban ("post ban" meaning
assembled after 9/14/94) AR-15 rifle which has only one of the listed
features, and that is the pistol grip. It was previously believed by most
people in the industry that "thumb-hole" configuration stocks were a way
to technically eliminate the "pistol grip" feature on a rifle. However, BATF
has now interpreted the Crime Bill in such a way that it isn't possible to
construct an AR-15 type rifle without a pistol grip regardless of the stock
configuration. Because there is no way to eliminate the pistol grip feature,
you may not have a flash suppressor or a muzzle that is "threaded to
accept a currently manufactured flash suppressor." A compensator or
recoil reducing device is acceptable as long as it is attached permanently
by pinning, welding or high temperature silver solder or attached with a
thread pattern for which there is no flash suppressor made.
[This message has been edited by dZ (edited November 11, 1999).]
Exactly, dZ, the law as you have described it allows me to take a lower, any lower, and assemble it into a rifle, provided it's not an assault rifle as defined. Therefore, if the lower I'm using is ALREADY converted to non-pistol-grip config, then at the TIME THAT I ADD THE UPPER, it only had one more offending item, the flash suppressor. Let's see:
"After September 14, 1994 [yes], no lower receiver can be completed to form a
"semi-automatic" rifle [yes] that has an ability to accept a detachable
magazine [yes] and has two or more of the following features:
A.a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath [no] the action of the weapon
B.a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor (a recoil reducing device is considered acceptable) [yes]
C.a folding or telescoping stock [no]
D.a bayonet mount [no]
E.a grenade launcher [no]
Voila, only ONE, therefore no assault rifle, therefore no infraction. Guys, look at the exact language - you haven't violated it as long as the pistol grip removal was done BEFORE the upper was "assembled" to it! Excellent. (provided dZ has correctly paraphrased the law). And we know thumbholed stocks are NOT violative of
paragraph A at the fed level (Calif is now different story).
So, there you have it. Now if your upper has a compensator, not a suppressor, then you can leave the pistol grip on - I really don't see any distinction at all between pre-ban vs post-ban uppers/lowers in this definition. If that's an agency ruling (BATF), then it seems challengeable.
"After September 14, 1994 [yes], no lower receiver can be completed to form a
"semi-automatic" rifle [yes] that has an ability to accept a detachable
magazine [yes] and has two or more of the following features:
A.a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath [no] the action of the weapon
B.a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor (a recoil reducing device is considered acceptable) [yes]
C.a folding or telescoping stock [no]
D.a bayonet mount [no]
E.a grenade launcher [no]
Voila, only ONE, therefore no assault rifle, therefore no infraction. Guys, look at the exact language - you haven't violated it as long as the pistol grip removal was done BEFORE the upper was "assembled" to it! Excellent. (provided dZ has correctly paraphrased the law). And we know thumbholed stocks are NOT violative of
paragraph A at the fed level (Calif is now different story).
So, there you have it. Now if your upper has a compensator, not a suppressor, then you can leave the pistol grip on - I really don't see any distinction at all between pre-ban vs post-ban uppers/lowers in this definition. If that's an agency ruling (BATF), then it seems challengeable.
Oh, and as to the other component of my question, whether the 1 1/2" of flash suppressor "counts" as to whether the "barrel" exceeds 16", I know this is controlled by an entirely separate statute from the assault weapons ban, but I take it this is OK? Or does the rifled barrel itself have to be at least 16", not counting add-ons?
Bush master welds a 5.5" long compensator on the 11.5" barrel to bring the OA length to 16 inches
this paragraph worries me:
It was previously believed by most
people in the industry that "thumb-hole" configuration stocks were a way
to technically eliminate the "pistol grip" feature on a rifle. However, BATF
has now interpreted the Crime Bill in such a way that it isn't possible to
construct an AR-15 type rifle without a pistol grip regardless of the stock
configuration.
this paragraph worries me:
It was previously believed by most
people in the industry that "thumb-hole" configuration stocks were a way
to technically eliminate the "pistol grip" feature on a rifle. However, BATF
has now interpreted the Crime Bill in such a way that it isn't possible to
construct an AR-15 type rifle without a pistol grip regardless of the stock
configuration.
Well, then BATF is WRONG. If there's not even a thumbhole AT ALL (standard rifle stock), how can they possible argue that there is a "pistol grip" at all. They're becoming seriously rogueish if this is true - someone must challenge this not on 2nd am grounds, but on agency exceeding limit of authority grounds.