Question of surface re-finish of 1917 S&W

B

Bill Akins

New member
I have a 1917 S&W project revolver that I brought back to life.
It was dirty, rusty and pitted when I got it. I fixed it so now it is operating perfectly and I buffed it out to a mirror polish so it is beautiful now.

The problem I am encountering is I thought I had a friend who did royal blue hot tank bluing, but found out he doesn't do that. And those that do are far away and charge quite a bit for it. I kind of like it mirror polished out like it is. It's beautiful and looks like it is nickel plated though it isn't.

I have a friend who does hydro-printing on guns and he told me that if I wanted it hydro-printed, he would have to bead blast it to get the revolver's surface to hold the paint. With all the time I've spent buffing it out to a mirror polish, I don't want it bead blasted. I like the mirror polish it has.

I considered just keeping a good coat of auto wax polish on it, but that doesn't permanently seal it as well as I'd like it.

So I am wondering is there is some kind of very hard clear epoxy or something that doesn't need bead blasting to apply that I could use to permanently seal the carbon steel from rust, while still preserving the buffed out mirror polish I have right now? Otherwise I'll just keep it waxed.


Would appreciate any advice.

.
 
Last edited:
Bill, Your revolver has been taken down to bare steel correct? If you like the high polish finish you now have, why not keep it as is? I think a coat of wax every so often would protect the finish. I among others apply wax to our blued revolvers to protect the finish, I don't see why you could not do the same to a "bare finish"

Just a Thought.
 
That's correct Old Bear. It's bare carbon steel buffed out to a high mirror polish.
I've considered keeping it waxed just as you suggested, but I'd like it better if I could find some kind of very hard clear epoxy type of paint to permanently seal it against the elements. It would have to not only be a very hard coating that wouldn't scratch, but that also could be painted over a mirror polished surface without it flaking off. Was hoping someone here might know of a clear coating like that. Polyurethane scratches too easily. Has to be something very hard.


.
 
Last edited:
Powder coat? Paint? Nickle?

Come on guys... it's a classic revolver: It deserves a LOT better than that.

Get it hot blued, or get some blueing salts from Brownells, set yourself up with a coleman stove in the backyard, and blue the thing yourself. It's not hard to do, is not equipment intensive for a one-revolver job, and the pride you take in it will be huge. Cheap old iron pots, a coleman stove, and some degreaser and salts... it's a fun half days work.

Willie

.
 
Come on guys... it's a classic revolver: It deserves a LOT better than that.

Get it hot blued, or get some blueing salts from Brownells, set yourself up with a coleman stove in the backyard, and blue the thing yourself. It's not hard to do, is not equipment intensive for a one-revolver job, and the pride you take in it will be huge. Cheap old iron pots, a coleman stove, and some degreaser and salts... it's a fun half days work.
Click to expand...

And the winner is. Mr. Willie
 
I vote either have it blued or do it yourself if that's possible. You spent that much time polishing in preparation to blue it, it'll look better blued in my opinion. Classic revolvers should be blued. Nickel would be my second and last suggestion. I would think leaving the revolver in the white will require too much upkeep to keep it looking good, although I've been wrong before.

Stu
 
I don't really want to powder coat it nor nickel plate it. My first choice would be for it to have that royal blue of a Colt Python. But there is no one in my area that does that and those that do are far away and I'd have to ship my revolver to an FFL and then have it shipped back to my FFL before I could get it back. Too much hassle if I can't get it done locally.

I have three S&W 1917's. One is a beautiful fine blue commercial model made sometime between 1929 to 1938, another is a nicely matte nickel plated one made in 1918, and except for the matte nickel on that one, both of those first two are basically unmodified except for the commercial model having a different serial number on its cylinder that closely matches the production run numbers but doesn't EXACTLY match the frame and barrel. Now those two have much better collector value than my project one has.

But this other 1918 one I want to get a surface finish on, has lost most its collector value because although its frame and cylinder serial numbers match, its barrel serial number doesn't, AND...I had to partially buff out a lot of the British crown markings (lend lease) all over it to get all the rust pits out, so you can tell it has been necessarily heavily buffed, and the non matching serial number barrel has been cut to a snubby.

So although it is a classic revolver, and I have it beautiful and perfectly functioning now, it isn't really a collector piece anymore. Below is what it looked like after the first buffing. Since that pic was taken I had temporarily cold blued it and then several days ago I buffed that cold blue off and am now in the process of trying to find some very hard clear epoxy type of coating, since I have no experience or knowledge of how to get that very deep reflective royal blue of the Colt Python on it and no one locally does that and as I said earlier, I don't want the hassle of sending it out and back between FFL's.

Results of first buffing. You can see cut snubby barrel that I will put a front sight on that being cut as well as not numbered to the frame, destroys most actual collector value. Cylinder and frame numbers do match though. It's just a shooter now, but I want it to be a beautiful shooter.
2659809530099763970S600x600Q85.jpg


But having said all that, I have put a lot of time and labor into it to bring it back to life again, and I'd like it to look as good as possible without spending a mint on a surface finish.

Except for an excellent royal blue job like on a Colt Python, I'm just afraid if I BLACK it, that it will not show up as mirror polish as it does now that it is polished in the white. I say that because after I buffed it the first time, I temporarily cold blued it, then "carded" it with fine steel wool to smooth and blend the black of the cold so called "blue" (that isn't blue at all). The cold blue worked but muted the shiny mirror polish. So several days ago I buffed off the cold blue and it is back to its buffed out bare carbon steel mirror polish again. After taking the time of buffing it out twice now, I'd like to make sure the next finish it gets on it will allow that same mirror polish to show and I won't have to buff it out again. I'm just not convinced BLACKENING it will allow it to do that. I haven't seen a BLACKENED finish yet that I thought allowed a high degree of mirror shine except for nickel black and that is another finish entirely. And most of the time what we call "BLUING" isn't "bluing" at all but is actually blackening.

I appreciate all the suggestions everyone has made. And Willie, I appreciate the links you provided for home "bluing" and I bookmarked them for future reference. But even in the links you provided for home "bluing" it even said it was actually blackening and not bluing. I'd just hate to amass all that stuff cited in the home "bluing" instructions and still not be satisfied with the results. But if I could just easily spray clear coat it with some kind of clear epoxy that would not scratch, then I COULD be assured that it would stay just as shiny as it is now, be a lot less hassle and trouble spraying it rather than backyard "bluing" (blackening) it, and wouldn't have to buy all those materials necessary for blackening. Plus I wouldn't have to worry about nervous store employees calling homeland security on me because I was buying sodium chlorate this and that chemicals and fertilizer.

Jim Watson, I am very interested in the Brownell's Aluma Hyde gloss clear coat that dries to a hard epoxy like coating that you provided a link to. Going to call them tomorrow and ask about that coating. Thanks for that link Jim.

Even if I did get all that stuff and was ready to try my hand at "bluing", it would be my first time. I don't want to experiment on this revolver as my first try at hot "bluing" (again....actually blackening). And I don't want to spend forever getting enough knowledge and experience working on scrap parts to become experience enough just to do a good hot "bluing" job on this revolver that would come out BLACK anyway and might mute the mirror polish just as the cold blue did. I neither want to take the time, nor have the time for all that. I'd like to get this done to my satisfaction (and that means being certain whatever I do will allow for the high mirror polish to come through) within the next week or so.

That's why at this point I'd rather just find some kind of very hard, clear epoxy type of coating that will fully allow the mirror polish to shine through.
Yes it will look nickel plated if I do that. But then I have the fun of telling people it isn't and popping the cylinder open and showing them it isn't nickel plated inside (cold blued inside) but buffed out carbon steel clear coated with something.

That very hard, clear, "something" is what I'm trying to find out about and find. Give it one real gentle final buffing, just to make sure it is freshly buffed as highly polished as it can be without oxidizing a day or so even though you probably couldn't tell, then soak and scrub in acetone to remove all oil, dry and spray with a clear coat. Much easier than all the hassle and things to amass for hot tank bluing.

Does that explain a little better why I'm leaning this way?


.
 
Last edited:
Bluing is really cold bluing... it's done by rusting metal slowly and carding off the red rust and repeating. That's the old way. Only done these days on best quality shotguns, etc. It's also not terribly wear resistant although it's pretty. It can literally take weeks to get it right.

Hot bluing is "really blacking"? ... Uhh: No. Not really. It's a surface oxidation that can range in color between jet black and the color of the old Colt Royal Bluing. All of it is done the same way: Polish, degrease, boil in "salts", and wipe down with oil. The color, which can range between black and bright blue, is a function of the salts used.

The fertilizer based salts give more black than blue. But if you want to spend a few bucks, go to Brownells and buy a bag of salts that suits your color better. Or do a little research and find other "home-made" recipes. There are literally thousands of them. None of the actual processes will vary though... it's all going to be done in a pot over a burner.

Maybe that revolver has lost it's collector value, but it's still a classic. Hot Bluing is really the right finish... color as per your desires, and either home done (which is easy), or done by someone else.

Clear coat? Hmmm... really.... you would be better off waxing it. Clear coat (no matter what) is going to scratch, rust under dings, and yellow. Just not a good finish. Your idea of leaving it "in the white" has been done before: I have a few Mausers of German manufacture and South American issue that had recievers left in the white and they are still perfect after 100 years. They were kept dry and oiled.



Willie

.
 
Willie I do appreciate your's and everyone else's suggestions and I will check out Brownells for different kinds of finish salts. In the first link you provided for home bluing, the first line said "All bluing is really blackening".......

"All "bluing" is really blacking. The blue shine is due to additional chemicals such as manganese that are added to the mix. They are usually less abrasion resistant than blacking and perforce are thinner to give the blue refraction. They are a lot fussier to do and the results vary more than straight blacking on different metal alloys and heat treatment in my experience. I generally use a lye, fertilizer mix that gives the hardest blacking I have ever seen and it so simple anyone can do it, plus the ingredients are available at the hardware store rather than paying UPS hazardous shipment fees."

The author didn't say how much manganese is needed for that Colt Python type of royal blue finish. Powdered manganese? A bar of manganese? How much manganese? He didn't say. He just mentioned "manganese" for a more royal blue type of finish and didn't elaborate.

Then the author showed his "bluing" rig. It consisted of a propane turkey fryer, a deep fryer thermometer, a french fryer type strainer container. He also showed you have to buy ammonium nitrate, sodium or potassium nitrate if ammonium nitrate is not available. Distilled water and granular lye (sodium hydroxide) is also needed.

Toward the end of his tutorial, he said...."Boil parts in TSP, Oakite or such first". I have no idea what TSP or Oakite is and he didn't say how much to use and I also don't know what other materials he meant by "or such" and he didn't elaborate. He also didn't say at what point to do that. At the very end of the tutorial he said..."You do not have to plug the bore as the magnitite film is harder than the steel and, if anything, should improve it. Possibly a little chemical milling too."

What is magnitite? He didn't say. And is it really harder than steel? Other tutorials I've read said you DID have to plug the barrel before bluing, but this author says you don't have to. I know what milling is, and can imagine what chemical milling is, but in what context and significance to the gun was he talking about "chemical milling" for? He didn't say.

I looked at his handguns he said he did using his formula. With the single exception of his Browning Hi Power, all the rest of them are a flat or matte BLACK and some of them almost look like charcoal color parkerizing. So even if I buy all the chemicals he said, buy a turkey fryer and propane tank, fryer thermometer, french fry type strainer, and all the stuff I need to do this one revolver, I still just get a flat black type of finish.

I was hoping for something a little better and shinier. I don't want to take the time to experiment on scrap to become expert at this. There is a lot of stuff to buy and then store away according to his tutorial. I could try his method, but I'm not nuts about the flat black results. I could take the time to research to find out more about other methods, but I'd really like to just get something done faster. If I can't find an easier method for a better type of bluing, or an epoxy type of clear coat, I think I'll just keep it in the white and wax it.


.
 
Last edited:
I don't understand your aversion to plating The finish on plating has everything to do with surface preparation. You could still tell people you polished the gun.
Nickel was a factory finish, and will hold up better than any clear coat you might find, and it will look better.
 
The author didn't say how much manganese is needed for that Colt Python type of royal blue finish. Powdered manganese? A bar of manganese? How much manganese? He didn't say. He just mentioned "manganese" for a more royal blue type of finish and didn't elaborate.

Beats me, I have not seen mention of manganese in bluing elsewhere, just Parkerizing. It may be in the Brownells or Du-Lite commercial mix. I bet Ken would tell you what form and how much. Contact him direct.

Then the author showed his "bluing" rig. It consisted of a propane turkey fryer, a deep fryer thermometer, a french fryer type strainer container. He also showed you have to buy ammonium nitrate, sodium or potassium nitrate if ammonium nitrate is not available. Distilled water and granular lye (sodium hydroxide) is also needed.

It doesn't matter what brand or formula you use, all hot tank blues I know of contain sodium hydroxide - lye. It does not play a chemical role in the bluing, it is simply to raise the boiling point to where the nitrates will oxidize the surface of the steel smoothly. So in any case, you are handling a boiling solution of lye, 255-285 deg F. And a strong caustic like lye is more damaging to human tissue than acid. Good procedure and protective wear is essential for the operators' safety.

Toward the end of his tutorial, he said...."Boil parts in TSP, Oakite or such first". I have no idea what TSP or Oakite is and he didn't say how much to use and I also don't know what other materials he meant by "or such" and he didn't elaborate. He also didn't say at what point to do that.

TSP = Tri Sodium Phosphate, a strong detergent compound. Oakite = a strong commercial detergent product. "Such" = a hot detergent degreaser as might be sold by Brownells specifically for bluing. You boil your parts in detergent to get them preheated and absolutely grease free before bluing. (You also need a hot rinse to get the detergent off.)

At the very end of the tutorial he said..."You do not have to plug the bore as the magnitite film is harder than the steel and, if anything, should improve it. Possibly a little chemical milling too." What is magnitite? He didn't say. And is it really harder than steel? Other tutorials I've read said you DID have to plug the barrel before bluing, but this author says you don't have to.

Magnetite = ferrous/ferric iron oxide, Fe3O4. That IS the blue or black surface layer of bluing. Bluing process conditions are strictly controlled to get black iron oxide (magnetite) instead of red rust, Fe2O3. Done in a hot blue tank, the layer is so thin and smooth as to not affect the bore. You can see guns that have been shot a good bit still retaining the hard blue surface inside the barrels. Now if you were doing it by the old rust blue process, the bore should be protected.


I know what milling is, and can imagine what chemical milling is, but in what context and significance to the gun was he talking about "chemical milling" for? He didn't say.

Chemical milling is removal of material by dissolving it instead of cutting. He likely refers to the tendency of his mix to give a matte surface.

I looked at his handguns he said he did using his formula. With the single exception of his Browning Hi Power, all the rest of them are a flat or matte BLACK and some of them almost look like charcoal color parkerizing. So even if I buy all the chemicals he said, buy a turkey fryer and propane tank, fryer thermometer, french fry type strainer, and all the stuff I need to do this one revolver, I still just get a flat black type of finish.

I don't know how he was able to keep that Browning so bright, the ammonium nitrate mix is naturally kind of dull. Another thing he might give details on if asked. He surely polished the dickens out of it to start with. No gun finish will be any brighter than the base metal was to start with. They can dull it but not shine it.

I think I'll just keep it in the white and wax it.

At one time USFA sold the China Camp model, which was a single action revolver "in the white" with no finish at all. I only saw one in use and even though it had been kept clean and oiled, there was still some darkening of the hammer spur and trigger where he applied a sweaty hand every shot. The backstrap was still clean and white, probably because it was wide and smooth, easy to clean.
 
It is a used gun already far from the original finish. Plate the gun or send it off to be blues. Otherwise you waste all the time you spent polishind it..
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top