Question for the BULLET KINGS

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George Hill

Staff Alumnus
I have observed over the years that some calibers prefer certain bullet types.
IE - I have yet to see a load for the .45 that is better than the 230 grain Hydra-Shok.
The Hydras-Shoks in other weights and other calibers don't seem to have the same mojo.
In .40 I find that the 135 grain loads from CORBON (if I dont want fragmentation) or TRITON (if I do) to be the best.
I could go on with 9'a and such...

Is there some physics going on in these different calibers that make a bullet behave differently in different calibers?
I know this sounds like a stupid question - but I am looking for a formula here on bullet selection.

Looking for answers from TRITON, CORBON and TED B...

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"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"

-- Adolph Hitler
September, 1935


RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
The Critic formerly known as Kodiac


[This message has been edited by George Hill (edited August 28, 1999).]
 
George – It’s not a stupid question. In fact it’s a damn good question. Tom Burczynski is the best person to answer this but I will try to shed some light as well.

Every bullet ever designed has a built in “window of performance”. By that I mean a velocity window that allows that particular bullet to function as it is designed. The bullet’s construction (core composition, cavity dimensions, jacket thickness, etc.) along with the velocity the bullet achieves will determine how effective it is in expanding and transferring energy to the target. Some bullets have a very narrow window while others are wider. When you go outside that window of performance two things can occur: 1) If you go too slow that bullet fails to achieve full expansion in the desired depth of penetration. Worst case is no expansion and dangerous overpenetration. 2) If you go too fast the bullet may shear apart randomly and not penetrate deep enough.

When you look at .45 ACP, the top dog has been the 230-grain Hydra-Shok as you pointed out. Why the Hydra-Shok? To be fair the Hydra-Shok has been in more shootings than the newer designs. If we had equal amounts of case studies it would be easier to say why one design is superior over another. In addition, when you look at the lighter weight bullets like the 165-grain in .45 ACP, you have a new contender for the King of Hill position. Again, there are not enough shootings out there yet to prove so. For now we must rely on the gelatin testing and live animal tests for our information.

What makes a Hydra-Shok the best in .45 ACP but not in .40 S&W? With all else (bullet composition) being the same, my guess is bullet weight and velocity. What this does is bring us right back to the original debate, lightweight versus heavier bullet.

On the grand scheme of things, I believe that every caliber has a weight and velocity window that is optimum for that caliber. In 9MM you have the 115 (1250-1300+ fps) and 124 grain (1150-1250 fps) weights. In .40 S&W you have 135 (1250-1300+ fps), 155 grain (1175-1250 fps) weights. In .45 ACP you have 165 (1175-1250+ fps) and 185 grain (1150-fps) weights.

Now there are some bullets that do not conform to the above criteria but are top performers, like the .45 ACP 230 gr. Hydra-Shok. That’s when you go back to a bullet’s fundamental design and window of performance. You may also have a 9MM 115 grain that is loaded to 1250 or 1280 fps that, when fired from a compact auto, will not expand reliably. Again, we are back to the window of performance of that particular bullet design. Maybe the core was too hard and the cavity too small to reliably function at the lower velocity.

Triton’s Hi-Vel line relies on added velocity and lighter bullets to compensate for scenarios where a shorter barrel may rob performance. The Personal Defense line from Hydra-Shok also utilizes lightweight bullets but relies more on the design of the bullet in order to aid in expansion. The Quik-Shok bullets also rely on the pre-stressed design of the bullet core in order to achieve top performance out of various barrel lengths.

Having said all that, I have a feeling this is going to be a heavily debated subject. I hope the server has a broad enough band width and memory!

Fernando
 
> For now we must rely on the gelatin testing and live animal tests for our information.<


LIVE ANIMAL TESTING!?!?

:D :D

I couldn't resist linking that!!!


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Schmit, GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"

[This message has been edited by David Schmidbauer (edited August 29, 1999).]
 
Kodia... er, George - go to CALIBERS at http://greent.com/40Page , scroll down to .40 S&W, and read "Why the 180gr is a bad choice for 40 S&W." They advocate the middleweight .40's, not your favorite 135gr screamer, but what they say is very interesting - especially as the piece was written several years ago. They do show that the lighter wights are safer (read the damn piece), more powerful, and more accurate. Enjoy!

(Hey, who turned off my HTML? :))

[This message has been edited by Morgan (edited August 29, 1999).]
 
To George Hill:

> I have observed over the years that some calibers prefer certain bullet types. IE - I have yet to see a load for the .45 that is better than the 230 grain Hydra-Shok. The Hydras-Shoks in other weights and other calibers don't seem to have the same mojo.

> Is there some physics going on in these different calibers that make a bullet behave differently in different calibers?

Physics is, of course, always involved in the way bullets behave (regardless of caliber). But looking at terminal performance from a more fundamental standpoint, _bullet geometry_ is the ultimate determining factor. As Fernando pointed out, the cavity dimensions, core hardness and jacket thickness are all regulating factors. Regarding the difference in performance from caliber to caliber, however, core wall _thickness_, the degree of wall taper and wall “length” (axial dimension) are the prime controlling factors. Wall thickness is obviously linked to cavity size but not necessarily in a proportional way from caliber to caliber unless the bullet was purposely designed to be proportional by deliberately scaling up (or down). Example: A .45 caliber bullet could be designed with the same proportional ogive, same proportional meplat diameter, same proportional cavity I.D. (at opening), same proportional cavity depth and same proportional cavity I.D. (at terminus) as that of a particular 9mm round. This type of ‘proportionality’ is rarely ever used by manufacturers though because of the often great disparity in muzzle velocity between calibers. In other words, the dimensioning approach cited above, while proportional, would not necessarily be conducive of optimum performance. Manufacturers attempt to make their bullets as robust as possible so that they perform acceptably over the widest possible range of use. The interior/exterior ballistic limitations of a particular bullet and the scope of application are always taken into consideration. Often a bullet is called upon to defeat sheet steel AND open up after being fired through fabric.

The wall area surrounding the .45 Hydra-Shok cavity is thick -- proportionally thicker than the .40 or the 9mm. Plus, the .45’s mass is greater and its muzzle velocity is lower. This means that the cavity wall expands at a different rate than say, a 9mm Hydra-Shok bullet. In the case of the .45 Hydra-Shok, the above combination happens to provide us with an efficient projectile. Part of this efficiency is due to cavity design and part of it is because of the heavy bullet’s thicker wall area and greater momentum.

It's interesting to note that almost everyone places great stock in the final diameter of the recovered bullet. Unfortunately, the recovered diameter tells us little about the in-transit performance of a particular round. For instance: WHEN did maximum bullet expansion occur in its transit through the test medium? HOW LONG was the maximum diameter maintained before the ogive material curled back to produce a smaller diameter? HOW MUCH energy was transmitted at inch 2 as compared with inch 4 and inch 6? What was the shape of the ogive at maximum diameter? Was it somewhat rounded or was it flat? Did the bullet have to penetrate 2 feet to attain maximum expansion? These are all important questions for which almost no one has answers (that’s why I use high-speed photography as an analysis tool). In the case of the thick-walled Hydra-Shok, its maximum expanded diameter is maintained for a longer period of time than the thin-walled 9mm. The same holds true for several other brands of bullets out there.

As mentioned, momentum is partially responsible for any heavy bullet’s expansion (the greater momentum applies greater pressure (crushing force) to the nose of the bullet)). A substantial percentage of this pressure is directed into the Hydra-Shok cavity. This translates to greater expansion than would have been the case if the bullet had had less mass. While a high velocity lightweight bullet may transfer more energy to the target (and expand well via sheer velocity), the heavier, slower-moving bullet expands proportionally easier and maintains maximum expanded diameter longer. This undoubtedly accounts for the .45 Hydra-Shok’s impressive street record. I should point out though that any heavy h.p. bullet has a distinct advantage over a lighter h.p. bullet as momentum helps it expand proportionally easier.

> I know this sounds like a stupid question - but I am looking for a formula here on bullet selection.

Unfortunately, there are too many variables involved to reduce bullet performance to a single formula. If such a formula existed, I’d be out of a job.

Tom Burczynski

[This message has been edited by Tom Burczynski (edited August 29, 1999).]
 
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