Question for hunters

E

Elite Doberman

Inactive
Ok a couple things first:

I eat alot of dead animals. (about to eat one now!)

I know someone has to do it.

I know that an unchecked deer population poses a hazard.

I don't have anything against hunters.


Nevertheless, I have a sensitive spot for animals, and I think shooting a deer would make me sad.
Perhaps that makes me a hypocrite because I eat meat.

I'm NOT trying to bash hunters or get all PETA on your asses :p , just want to understand the mindset.

Does it bother you at all when the deer dies? Any time I lost any pet I had it bothered me alot, and I think I might feel the same way if I was to shoot a deer.
 
It has never bothered me to kill an animal. Especially when it comes to game animals. They are all going to my table. Deer...never felt bad about whackin one, or three. I eat them and they taste good.

Of course, that's how I was raised. The land provides. Eat what you kill (within reason). Respect the land and it's owners.
 
Deer are by no means a pet and no it does not make me feel bad but rather the opposite because it feels good.
If it bothers you don't hunt, leave it to someone else.
One more, if you eat meat then think of it this way, someone killed the animal in which you get the meat from but the main difference is they are fenced, fattened up and the killed where a deer run free until they die or get killed by a hunter or other means.
 
The only time killing an animal bothers me is if I (or someone I see) makes a shot that doesn't result in a good, quick kill. Contrary to the movies, very few things die immediately. There is almost always some running/kicking/squirming etc until the brain dies. However, a bad shot can result in more of that than is needed. A good, ethical hunter always does everything in his power to make sure the game is dispacted as cleanly as possible.

One more thing while I'm at it. I'm also bothered by the slob hunters who will kill a deer, cut off the antlers, and leave a perfectly good carcass to rot - usually because they are too lazy to be bothered with cleaning the animal.
 
My parents were hippies. Dad went to Viet Nam and came back not a hippy. Mom never quite got past it. I was raised by a vegetarian,card carrying peta member mother and my Dad was the opposite. He had me hunting with him by the time i was 3 or 4. You have to understand how devisive that all was. Whew..

So personally, i live, breathe, eat and sleep all adventures outdoors, but hunting in particular. As i was exposed to this as a young one. But i am certainly VERY sympathetic to the feelings of the animals i hunt as i was also raised to know that they have them.

I find that 99% of all my enjoyment involving hunting has nothing to do with killing anything. Studying the quarry, gearing up, the weapons involved and the proficiency reuired to use them take up almost all of the time involved in the chase. The chase itself takes up the rest of the time, with that time being so wonderfully spent out in the beautiful outdoors. Worth every moment and expense it takes to get there.

The kill itself is harder for me now, as a child i would kill indiscriminately, with no thought as to pain or suffering on the animals part. Now of course i know better and do everything in my power to insure kills as fast as possible.

What allows me to do what could be in fact interpreted as a cruel, barbaric way of providing cheap thrills, is the reality that all of us who use leather products, eat meat or even use glue contribute to the death of an animal. It's just one that their hands are washed clean of and one they didn't have to witness. The animals trucked to and killed by slaughterhouses know fear that 99% of my kills never know. If we do our part they never know what hit them and we are taking personal responsibility for our own substinance, knowing it is harvested as a clean animal with no steroids or drugs ingested, lived it's life freely and probably made it through the better part of its natural lifespan.

Do i feel bad when i kill a deer? Yes, in a reflective way as i take into full consideration the taking of a life. It never lingers though,as the fast harvest of an animal involves no real suffering as best i can tell. The tenderloin steaks and jerky strips don't make me sad for sure and at the end of every summer i can feel the urge start to kick in. J.R.
 
deer are beautiful and lovely to watch and they should be respected. harvesting an animal for food should not be a bother to you. if it is then you should stick to supermarket meat, but there is no difference really dead is dead.

i do wonder about some of these horn hunters you see on tv. i mean it seems like they take 50 deer a year throughout the country. i can only dream about drawing a deer and an elk tag in the same year, let alone be successful. I don't know about the tv hunters but i only have so much room in my freezer. when you watch the same guy getting a new deer every week it seems kind of excessive to me. if i see jeff foxworthy kill another game farm deer i think i'll puke.

hunting should be more than the killing of the animal, or the meat, or the trophy. it should be about the experience and even if you never see an animal the experience should still be good. truth be told there are alot of hunters that see plenty of deer and never pull a trigger, they have their trophys it is the experience that is important to them.
 
It saddens me to see an animal suffer because they do have pain but I have no sadness or remorse from a clean kill. Animals are not people. It is a mistake to attribute human emotions and "incentives" to them. They do not know what death is, they do not have mommies and daddies and brothers and sisters that will miss them. They know the instinct that helps them survive. Even the "fear" that we ascribe to animals is only an instinct. They are not thinking something like "Oh no! That human is going to kill me! I must escape!"
 
The following is a email and response between myself and one of my "liberal" friends. In his inital email he admits so much, that he is a liberal. But I will say this of the man: I've stood by the fire and slurped many a oyster and watched more than a time or two as he enjoyed a hunk of bar-b-cued wild hog or a piece of fried vinison.

The question he asks was engendered by a picture I posted of a very large gator we had just caught. And I might add part of that gator was donated for a fund raising event that benifited a enviromential cause.

So here it is. I hope it helps you with your question..........

=============================================================================================================


This is question from my bleeding heart liberal perspective.


I ask you because I’m curious, and this is in no way a criticism. I don’t have a problem with hunting. And I know you won’t think of me as weird for asking…..


When you see a creature like this, one that has lived a long life, do you feel any regrets? Feel any empathy for the gator? Any thoughts like wow, I wish I hadn’t killed this guy?


For me, I would have to go through that line of questions—that’s why I don’t hunt.


It really is a huge gator…

Neil

==========

In answer....

I've had, and to some extent still do have, all the "emotional" responses that engender the questions you ask. A person would have to be, at least this is my opinion, very cold indeed to not question it all. And they'd have to be very shallow to not be impressed and in aw of such a magnificent creature.

Of course this is in the context of the modern world where we are disjunct of the everyday killing that goes on to produce our substance. This is where the logical part comes in. I know full well that, even in the instance of vegans, the production of our food involves much death. It's just a fact of life even if we are distanced from it.

In the instance of the gator, and the same holds true for the hogs and deer ( And I should say also for the fish and shrimp and the ......you get the point. ) the animal gets a sort of respect and reverence and is afforded a level of appreciation for it's given life that I think is never accorder a farmed animal. I mean who thinks for a moment about the chicken sandwich at Mc. Ds or the hamburger at Wendy's? But that gator, and those hogs and deer, they do get it........

And of course we must admit that all things are going to die and that evolution has structured the human predator as part of the system and that we are not immoral in being what evolution has made us. More than that I find it odd that we are the only animal that has the capacity to actually question the morality of being what we are. And of course we are also the only animal that has the capacity to mold our evolution by our conscious actions. All of which gets us into philosophy, a subject of which I am ignorant......

So do I question? Yes.
Is it normal to question? Yes.

What I'm left with though is the notion that for a great many the modern world allows them a luxury which our not to distant ancestors did not have and that is to pretend, for it is only a pretense if the logic is carried to it's fullest, that they are somehow not the most fearful creature the planet has ever spawned. And that other creatures will and must die at our hands ( At least for the time being, that is until science advances far enough so that we can eat rocks. ) and if I was a animal I would, given the choice, take the life of a wild gator killed by another predator, a predator who will respect and revere and appreciate me for what I was, over the life of any animal in any cage in any place on this planet.

And if you're not confused by this I can add more................


----- Original Message -----
From: Armingeon, Neil
To: Ben Williams
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 5:19 PM
Subject: A question


Ben



This is question from my bleeding heart liberal perspective.



I ask you because I’m curious, and this is in no way a criticism. I don’t have a problem with hunting. And I know you won’t think of me as weird for asking…..



When you see a creature like this, one that has lived a long life, do you feel any regrets? Feel any empathy for the gator? Any thoughts like wow, I wish I hadn’t killed this guy?



For me, I would have to go through that line of questions—that’s why I don’t hunt.



It really is a huge gator…



neil




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ben Williams [mailto:bswiv@comcast.net]
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 12:13 PM
To: Armingeon, Neil; Orth, James C; Jimmy Orth (E-mail 2)
Subject: You have received photos from Adobe Photoshop Album Starter Edition 3.0



The gator ribs for the oyster roast arrived this morning. Hauled this one out of Lake George at about 6 AM, 12' 6" and 5 to 600 pounds.



Tell me who is cooking the ribs and I'll go ahead and get them to them.



Ben


The sender has included tags, so you can do more with these photos. Download Photoshop (R) Album Starter Edition-Free!
http://www.adobe.com/aboutstarteredition
 
Ok I am not following you reasoning here?

You say you eat animals? Are we talking store bought meat like chicken, fish, beef and pork. Or are we talking about small game like ducks, squirrels and rabbits?

Here is my take; I do buy animal meat from grocery stores be it beef, chicken & pork or others. But my in-laws are farmers and we do also raise are own beef and sometimes chickens and pork. We do butcher and process are own animals. It is quiet an interesting process, for beef and pork it is a two weekend project. The first weekend is for killing and the second is for processing. The killing weekend pertains of shooting the animals in the brain for an instant and painless death. For beef we use an old Winchester 25-20 right between the eyes which drops them in there tracks. For hogs we use a standard .22 long rifle bullet at the base of the ear that lead into the brain. We then skin and gut the carcasses. After they are split and washed they are hung up for aging for about a week depending on the weather. The next weekend we will cut up the meat into burger, steaks, chops and etc. The thing about butchering your animal is that you have control over what cuts you want and how it is done. Although we kill and process the meat outside and in a machine shop I would say that the sanitary conditions are far better than most slaughter houses. What do you get by doing this your self? First it is you animal that you are dealing with you know how it was raised, fed, butchered and processed. The cost is your raising these animals is feed, any medical expenses, etc. You time is not usually included it is a part of the process. What you are not paying is the other person to raise this animal to sell at market and the middlemen associate with the processing and distribution of this animal. Ok this is enough off my soap box on domestic meat.

Wild game is another issue. In the past wild game was considered a luxury of subsistence, why because it was free meat in a sense. For a relatively inexpensive way to acquire protein in your diet for reality low cost. You did not have to raise the wild game be it deer, ducks, rabbits. Mostly the only cost was associated with buying ammunition and a small fee for license. Most households had some form a firearm that was used for all purposes. Mostly it was a low cost of protein at a relatively small cost.

Now if it is the killing you are worried about is it better to be a wild animal that is killed with out ever knowing what hit him or a farmer that kills his own animals with them not knowing what hits them. Or a slaughter house that has 75 animals lined up in a row and being killed and witness by every animal behind them. As far as hunters go I think the vast majority kill there quarry in a fast humane method. As far as the farmers are concerned it has gotten better. The used to use sledge hammers because them bullets cost money. It is hard to skin a cow when it is trying to get up and walk away. I am not saying that animals have feelings but if several animals start dropping dead around them they get kind of worked up. I hope this helps answer you question and puts things into a little perspective.
 
From a biological standpoint, few wild animals die in their sleep. The weaker ones are picked off by predators be it fish, fowl or mammals and the attacks appear grisly in most cases but it's not so.

Fish have primitive nervous systems and not enough brain power to diagnose pain. It's more like a 'everything's OK or something's wrong) response to the brain.

Birds are more evolved but I haven't studied their nervous systems very much.

Mammals have very elaborate nervous systems with varying abilities to deal with these inputs (such as pain). Man may be the most complex of all, the jury is still out on Cetaceans (whale family and larger brains). Fortunately mammals have ways of dealing with traumatic injuries with a flood of self induced anesthesia. I've personally suffered through many injuries and can tell you that the initial shock tells you that the REAL pain is going to start in about 20 mins. when all of the natural stuff subsides. I am assuming that these quantities cross over to all mammalian life and most of the kills in the wild are dead well inside of this timeframe.

What makes me sad: Eating a chicken that was raised in a pen eating modern chicken feed. Any other animal raised under the same conditions. Like yourself, I will continue to do so when I can't do any better.
 
+1 to SwampGhost's last couple lines.

Elite,

I am an avid hunter, and an animal rights proponent (no I do not endorse PETA), and yes I feel somewhat guilty after having taken an animal (in this case deer being the example)......forgive me but I just don't consider myself any better than the deer I'm hunting. To me life is life, I don't care if it's my own or a strangers' or that of a deer or a squirrel.

But as in all things there are necessary evils in life, and for me this just happens to be one of them. If hunters didn't harvest a number of deer every year, then there would be more deer being hit on the highway and more deer fighting for the same food. To ensure that the greater population is healthy a small amount MUST be harvested. It is because I want to see the deer live healthy lives that I hunt.........that and the fact that I love venison doesn't hurt either. :)

As a hunter I try my hardest to ensure that every kill will be a clean and fast one, to the best of my abilities. I try to utilize as much of my kill as I can, and I try to encourage my fellow hunters to do the same. This also concerns the manner in which an animal is killed. Only by killing the animal yourself can you truly know how it died.

The problem is that in the hunting community, if you admit that you feel empathy for an animal you've killed, you are considered to be a sissie, a liberal, a hippie, or whatever term is deemed derogatory at the time. Apparently you're supposed to think you are the top-dog, the alpha-male, that you are superior and more deserving of life than the creature you have killed. To the people who declare that no animal has feelings or fear or emotion in general, my only question is:
"How exactly have you come to this conclusion? Have you talked with an animal and asked if they had emotion? Have you conducted a brain scan to determine that the animal in question is incapable of experiencing emotion?"

Life is what it is, and different people see things differently. Few of us probably get even the smallest portion correct, and I'm not saying I do either. For anyone who disagrees with anything I've posted, I'm not in any way saying that your own statements or beliefs are wrong. I'm just stating a different take on the same activity that we all enjoy taking part in.

P.S.--- I type all of that, and for the record I killed a 170 lb. doe this afternoon, had venison for dinner too. Will post picture if requested. :D
 
In response to the poster "eating meat" - I would ask - would you ever eat meat again if you had to look into each farm-raised animal's eyes as it is killed? Would seeing a calf, chicken or turkey seem as cute in the moments before going to slaughter? Dont we give these animals too many human attributes, overly sentimentalizing their existences? On the other hand, how many times have we thoughtlessly consumed the flesh of these animals without a second of remorse or thanks for their sacrifice?. And isnt it easy to do so?? As a hunter I choose to enter the cycle of Life, I do not want to shy away from these emotions but to acknowlege and celebrate them as real - not a video game! I try not to kill needlessly or cruelly. I celebrate the animal's life that I have taken and the Creator who has provided it. Personally, sitting in the woods gives me insights into Nature, its connection to us humans and Life's eternal struggles. As I get older I crave these "real" experiences. I think this is a more honest way to live. Thats my 2 cents:o
 
i've had 2 dogs,3 hamsters die many years ago. do i miss them? yes i do.

an animal that i shot with the intention on eating it,i do not feel sorry at all.

an animal i shot that is a pest,or in self defense i would not feel sorry either.
me and mine must eat to survive, so an animal or 2 or 3 dying, and us eating it is better than me or mine dying of starvation. you can't get all the nutrients and energy needed to survive from plants alone.
 
If I didn't want any living thing to die, I wouldn't turn a gun on it; whether the reason is to make meat, eliminate a pest or in self defense.

If it don't fit one of those categories, I don't bother it.
 
What???

Does it bother you at all when the deer dies?
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Nope. Not at all. But, it doesn't mean I relish killing, it's just the natural progression of the hunt. I'm happy for the meat in the freezer and for the success of the hunt, but I don't get my jollies by killing. Better me eating it than a coyote or buzzard!


Any time I lost any pet I had it bothered me alot, and I think I might feel the same way if I was to shoot a deer.
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What??? I almost never shoot my pets and eat them. It always bothers me quite a bit to shoot one of my cats and eat him.:confused: (joking) Why do you compare the shooting of a deer to the death of a pet? May as well be sad when a light bulb blows because it reminds you of our life-giving sun, which; when it ends it's days as a supernova, will immolate our beloved planet earth.;)

Nevertheless, I have a sensitive spot for animals, and I think shooting a deer would make me sad.
Perhaps that makes me a hypocrite because I eat meat.
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Nope, because of:

I eat alot of dead animals. (about to eat one now!)

I know someone has to do it.

I know that an unchecked deer population poses a hazard.

I don't have anything against hunters
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Sounds like you know where meat comes from, know deer are game animals, but don't want to kill them yourself. No problem.


From what I'm reading, either you're trying to stir things up, or you have a legitimate question such as "How do people who care about animals feel about killing them while hunting?" Is that more what you wanted to ask? It's a fine question, but I still wonder how you related the death of a game animal to the death of a pet.
 
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As others have said.... I do not kill for the thrill of killing. I also have a soft spot for wildlife in general and can sit unarmed and watch the cute little critters playing and such all day. In the back of my mind, though, I am also realizing that I am a predator and that those cute and cuddly animals are dang lucky I am not hungry nor on the hunt at the moment. I also have a great disdain for myself if I do not get the clean kill I strive for! Kind of makes me feel like a lion that can't quite clamp down on the prey animals throat for as quick of a kill as I should get. But I can strive to improve and learn from my mistakes.
Because of this thread I thought long and hard and the most regretful kills I made were fish...:o I found a location and method of catching giant sized Black Drum. I killed 2 before I learned they were not good table fare at that size and that they were likely 40 or more years old. Now if I had known that I had caught the world record fish and gotten it registered I might have felt a bit better:rolleyes:
Brent
 
the way i see it every person has two different emotions that determine whether or not they are a hunter. theres the one side controlled by instinct and a certain barbaric nature that everyone has. its the reason some people can watch hunting shows and laugh. Or the reason people can mow down half a herd of does and not feel a single bit of remorse. the other side is the side that comes out when you see a fawn being attacked by coyotes. its the side that make you sad when you think about yr favorite dog that passed. until you get in the woods and put the crosshairs on a deer theres really no way of telling which emotion rules you.

that being said im the kind of person who can climb into the loft of a barn thats full of pest pigeons and shot 20 of them before i fall on the ground from uncontrolled laughter because the scene of feathers and blood everywhere is too much for me to handle! :D
 
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Elite Doberman-
I understand your concern. You are puzzled by the fact that some of us have these atavistic tendencies and enjoy pursuing game animals (notice I did not say kill game animals, because there is not a guarantee you will get one when you do go out, and hunting is not about the killing. Anyway, on with the show). For me there is a measure of self-sufficiency involved, the pleasure of providing for myself in spite of society's efforts to force us to conform, and the feeling that I am somehow still connected to nature, my ancestors, and the wild animals around me. I get none of that from a piece of meat wrapped in cellophane. I get a similar sense of self-sufficiency by harvesting my own garden.

Non-hunters see the killing as the reason for the hunt, primarily due to Disney and other anti-hunter propaganda. The killing is not a major part of the effort, but the killing does not bother me. I worked in a slaughterhouse for about 3 years, and every day I saw 1,800 +/-animals whacked in the head, bled, skinned, gutted, cut into parts and into the cooler before they even quit twitching. Seriously. You have to kill in order to live, or have someone kill for you. Even vegetarians have to kill in order to eat (because the farmer kills the animals in his crops or they would eat him out of business). In fact, if you don't kill, then someone is doing the killing for you. The only way to avoid killing in order to live is for you to give up and die (and even then you have to kill yourself).

Non-hunters imagine the animals are terrorized by hunters. The animals don't care about hunters. To the animals, you are just another predator, and not a very good one at that, because he usually has spotted you and knows you are there from the moment you walk into his world. But animals are relatively unconcerned unless you come too close, then they run away until they no longer feel you are a threat.

Non-hunters like to go out and look at animals and enjoy them in natural settings, and think hunters are terrible for wanting to kill the animals. The irony of the situation is that those non-hunters are going to areas paid for by hunters with license fees and taxes on firearms and ammunition to look at the animals. Hunters enjoy watching animals too, because they want to understand the animals and how they live. Hunters want all those animals there in order to maintain some semblance of wildness and to keep ecosystems healthy and functioning properly. Non-hunters have a twisted view of nature, seeing it as a large petting zoo where all the animals are friends. Hunters know better (ever seen a 20-lb lamb killed by a 6-lb eagle? Not pretty.).

Non-hunters want hunters to change and behave like they do, and are willing to force hunters to do so if needed. Hunters, on the other hand, want those non-hunters to allow them the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness promised to us by our founding fathers.
 
It never bothers me to shoot deer or elk, as I know I'm doing it to put food on the table and in the freezer. not to mention the enjoyment of being out in the woods with the quietness and beauty.
 
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