Question for 9x19
- Thread starter Tom B
- Start date
Because Glock doesn't make a .38 Super. 
That's only partially ture. I do like the .38 Super cartridge, but I've come to respect the 9mm as being the most efficient among popular pistol rounds.
It's small, powerful, accurate and economical, whether reloading or buying factory ammo.
The pistols chambered for it are, generally, size efficient as well. Nothing beats the Kel-Tec P-11 for combining size/light weight/capacity/power.
------------------
Make mine lean, mean, and 9x19!
That's only partially ture. I do like the .38 Super cartridge, but I've come to respect the 9mm as being the most efficient among popular pistol rounds.
It's small, powerful, accurate and economical, whether reloading or buying factory ammo.
The pistols chambered for it are, generally, size efficient as well. Nothing beats the Kel-Tec P-11 for combining size/light weight/capacity/power.
------------------
Make mine lean, mean, and 9x19!
I believe that the Kel-Tek P11 is the most effective firepower for it's size and wieght.
I also think that 9mm is on the threshold of diminishing returns for power per stopping power.
The P11 I can't feel when carrying. The Glock 19 I can feel, so the P11 is at the threshold of uncomfort to carry.
I also think that 9mm is on the threshold of diminishing returns for power per stopping power.
The P11 I can't feel when carrying. The Glock 19 I can feel, so the P11 is at the threshold of uncomfort to carry.
Why a nine?
1. It's a classic. IMHO, no personal armory is complete without one (or more), and no modern shooter's experience is whole without shooting one.
2. There are some great guns in 9mm. Such as my P226.
3. Ammo is cheap. Remington UMC is $6.97 for 50 rds at WallyWorld. (An added benefit of buying ammo at WalMart is watching the No-gun Nazis start to twitch and foam at the mouth when you loudly announce, "Gimme some of that 9mm Luger.")
4. After building confidence and ability with a nine (see 3. above), it is a smaller step up to a .40S&W or .45ACP.
5. 15 in the mag + 1 up the pipe.
6. If you own 3 or 4 excellent guns of various calibers, you can easily piss off any "one-true-caliber" zealot.
7. Some times you feel like a nine, some times you don't.
1. It's a classic. IMHO, no personal armory is complete without one (or more), and no modern shooter's experience is whole without shooting one.
2. There are some great guns in 9mm. Such as my P226.
3. Ammo is cheap. Remington UMC is $6.97 for 50 rds at WallyWorld. (An added benefit of buying ammo at WalMart is watching the No-gun Nazis start to twitch and foam at the mouth when you loudly announce, "Gimme some of that 9mm Luger.")
4. After building confidence and ability with a nine (see 3. above), it is a smaller step up to a .40S&W or .45ACP.
5. 15 in the mag + 1 up the pipe.
6. If you own 3 or 4 excellent guns of various calibers, you can easily piss off any "one-true-caliber" zealot.
7. Some times you feel like a nine, some times you don't.
The Observer
New member
I never switched to the 9MM - why should I!! I must improve my firepower into a better and modern cartridges, i.e. the .357, .45 or to the new .40 and 10MM. A pistolero never opt for a 9mm but upgrade his colelctions to a more powerful cartridges.
Haven't you feel undergun if you're carying a 9MM when you are facing with those who are using .45. Perhaps some may say, shot placement and overpenetration is necessary.
Comparing my Beretta 92FS, and my Colt.45 - I feel sorry that I have bought the 92FS.
Shooting them side by side in the range, I feel that the 9mm is like shooting a .38 only, not a powerful gun.
That is my own opinion only.
Haven't you feel undergun if you're carying a 9MM when you are facing with those who are using .45. Perhaps some may say, shot placement and overpenetration is necessary.
Comparing my Beretta 92FS, and my Colt.45 - I feel sorry that I have bought the 92FS.
Shooting them side by side in the range, I feel that the 9mm is like shooting a .38 only, not a powerful gun.
That is my own opinion only.
Destructo6
New member
Wide ammo availability (new and surplus) and lots of standard capacity mags (15+ rounds).
I shoot well with both of my 9mm Para pistols (CZ-75 and SIG 226).
I think a lot of people who insist on a particular cartridge are looking for the nonexistant magic bullet.
I shoot well with both of my 9mm Para pistols (CZ-75 and SIG 226).
I think a lot of people who insist on a particular cartridge are looking for the nonexistant magic bullet.
observer,
I think you are mistaking felt recoil for power. Relatively speaking, the 9mm and the .45ACP are not too far from each other. If you want real power, get a rifle.
However, if you are convinced that your Beretta is lacking, I would be happy to give it a new home for you.
------------------
Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat!
I hunt, therefore I am.
I think you are mistaking felt recoil for power. Relatively speaking, the 9mm and the .45ACP are not too far from each other. If you want real power, get a rifle.
However, if you are convinced that your Beretta is lacking, I would be happy to give it a new home for you.
------------------
Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat!
I hunt, therefore I am.
Mike Irwin
Staff
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Observer:
I never switched to the 9MM - why should I!! I must improve my firepower into a better and modern cartridges, i.e. the .357, .45 or to the new .40 and 10MM. A pistolero never opt for a 9mm but upgrade his colelctions to a more powerful cartridges.
[/quote]
Oh Lord, here we go again...
Hate to tell you this, but the "newer and more modern .45 is a DIRECT contemporary of the 9mm, which predates the .45 by less than 36 months..."
As for feeling undergunned, nope. I've never suffered from caliber envy. As the old saying goes... Size doesn't matter, it's how you use it.
------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
I never switched to the 9MM - why should I!! I must improve my firepower into a better and modern cartridges, i.e. the .357, .45 or to the new .40 and 10MM. A pistolero never opt for a 9mm but upgrade his colelctions to a more powerful cartridges.
[/quote]
Oh Lord, here we go again...
Hate to tell you this, but the "newer and more modern .45 is a DIRECT contemporary of the 9mm, which predates the .45 by less than 36 months..."
As for feeling undergunned, nope. I've never suffered from caliber envy. As the old saying goes... Size doesn't matter, it's how you use it.
------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
The Observer
New member
blade67 said: 'think you are mistaking felt recoil for power. Relatively speaking, the 9mm and the .45ACP are not too far from each other. If you want real power, get a rifle."
I have several rifles but I am talking particularly the power of 9mm and .45 on pistols as debated in many forums. Why gunners don't like to accept that the 9mm is an anemic caliber compared to the .45. Nines are good guns and I have 2 kinds of them. But I know for sure that for everyone of us knows that the .45 is far more more powerful than the 9mm. Only, many dislike it for most of the .45 models are heavy for carry.
The government in many countries issue the 9mm for economic reason, it is cheaper compared to the .45 caliber from Colt, springield, or ParaOrdnance. As to the recoil, lighter guns like the 9mm is wilder during firing compared to a heavy .45 caliber (especially the 5" barreled).
Yeah! the .45 and 9mm are cotemporary cartridges (9mm for europe and .45 for US.) But don't you accept that the .45 is an improvement of the 9mm cartridges if it comes to firepower. But the main reason why they discontinue the .45 as an issue to US soldiers is because of politics and as I said it is a cheaper units. I know my country's contract to the local supplier of Beretta. Also, not all 92FS models are of the same quality.
I have seen many police units being discontented with the 92FS of not having a cocked and locked features and many are altering the 92FS original features for they want to look like as the 1911 model to be cocked and locked but that is not advisable to alter the 92FS as it is made for that kind. I am referring to my 92FS I owned. I have found a buyer already for my nines, and if I add my inventory then it should be the .45 .357 or the other calibers I have mentioned.
I am just presenting facts, no more no less. Thus my opinion is I never switched to 9mm but instead I am replacing them. Availability and costs of bullets of these two are the same inmy locality. If we are just neighbors then I will trade my two 9mm to only one .45 Springfield.
I have several rifles but I am talking particularly the power of 9mm and .45 on pistols as debated in many forums. Why gunners don't like to accept that the 9mm is an anemic caliber compared to the .45. Nines are good guns and I have 2 kinds of them. But I know for sure that for everyone of us knows that the .45 is far more more powerful than the 9mm. Only, many dislike it for most of the .45 models are heavy for carry.
The government in many countries issue the 9mm for economic reason, it is cheaper compared to the .45 caliber from Colt, springield, or ParaOrdnance. As to the recoil, lighter guns like the 9mm is wilder during firing compared to a heavy .45 caliber (especially the 5" barreled).
Yeah! the .45 and 9mm are cotemporary cartridges (9mm for europe and .45 for US.) But don't you accept that the .45 is an improvement of the 9mm cartridges if it comes to firepower. But the main reason why they discontinue the .45 as an issue to US soldiers is because of politics and as I said it is a cheaper units. I know my country's contract to the local supplier of Beretta. Also, not all 92FS models are of the same quality.
I have seen many police units being discontented with the 92FS of not having a cocked and locked features and many are altering the 92FS original features for they want to look like as the 1911 model to be cocked and locked but that is not advisable to alter the 92FS as it is made for that kind. I am referring to my 92FS I owned. I have found a buyer already for my nines, and if I add my inventory then it should be the .45 .357 or the other calibers I have mentioned.
I am just presenting facts, no more no less. Thus my opinion is I never switched to 9mm but instead I am replacing them. Availability and costs of bullets of these two are the same inmy locality. If we are just neighbors then I will trade my two 9mm to only one .45 Springfield.
The Observer:
The fact is that with modern hollow point ammunition, there is very little real difference between the popular pistol calibers.
The .45 is NOT "an improvement of the 9mm cartridges if it comes to firepower". It is merely .097" larger in diameter. There is no magic there, much as it's devoted fans (which I'm thinking you are) might have you believe otherwise.
My centerfire pistol experience started out with the .45 (in the old war horse 1911) and graduated to the .38 super then the 9mm, then to the Glock.
The .45 is every bit as good as the 9mm, but is NOT bettter. It's just a differnt flavor of the same iced cream. One I've come to dislike, personally.
------------------
Make mine lean, mean, and 9x19!
[This message has been edited by 9x19 (edited August 16, 2000).]
The fact is that with modern hollow point ammunition, there is very little real difference between the popular pistol calibers.
The .45 is NOT "an improvement of the 9mm cartridges if it comes to firepower". It is merely .097" larger in diameter. There is no magic there, much as it's devoted fans (which I'm thinking you are) might have you believe otherwise.
My centerfire pistol experience started out with the .45 (in the old war horse 1911) and graduated to the .38 super then the 9mm, then to the Glock.
The .45 is every bit as good as the 9mm, but is NOT bettter. It's just a differnt flavor of the same iced cream. One I've come to dislike, personally.
------------------
Make mine lean, mean, and 9x19!
[This message has been edited by 9x19 (edited August 16, 2000).]
Some further points in the continuing caliber religious wars.
1. It is not clear that .45 ACP has significantly better stopping power than 9mm Luger, depending on what you feed your gun. According to Ayoob, "Independent studies by Sgt. Evan Marshall and this writer indicate approximately 68% and 70% stopping power capability with one round of .45 hardball; both found the better 9mm hollowpoints to have virtually identical stopping power. These figures came from documented street shootings of armed human beings, not from laboratory experiments in "test media".
What I have read indicates that 9mm guns are more likely to accept JHP with a higher degree of reliability than will 1911s. And if it matters to you, .45 ACP also seems to be much more likely to penetrate, keep going, ricochet, etc.
2. Studies indicate that veteran LEOs in street gun fights hit the target with about 60-65% of shots from a semi-auto (about 25% hits from a revolver, which is why no one uses wheel guns anymore). That means in a full blown shoot out, you can put about 4 rds into (or through and through) a BG, while you can put about 10 rds of puny little 9mm into him. More importantly, if you've got two BGs, you can put 2 rds of .45ACP into each or 5 rds of 9mm each.
3. Being comfortable and competent and confident with the gun and the ammo is probably as important as what you are shooting. (I don't even want to hear about your .22; there are limits.) A couple of goods hits with 9mm, even hardball, beats spraying .45s all over the landscape.
That's just my opinion. I may be wrong.
1. It is not clear that .45 ACP has significantly better stopping power than 9mm Luger, depending on what you feed your gun. According to Ayoob, "Independent studies by Sgt. Evan Marshall and this writer indicate approximately 68% and 70% stopping power capability with one round of .45 hardball; both found the better 9mm hollowpoints to have virtually identical stopping power. These figures came from documented street shootings of armed human beings, not from laboratory experiments in "test media".
What I have read indicates that 9mm guns are more likely to accept JHP with a higher degree of reliability than will 1911s. And if it matters to you, .45 ACP also seems to be much more likely to penetrate, keep going, ricochet, etc.
2. Studies indicate that veteran LEOs in street gun fights hit the target with about 60-65% of shots from a semi-auto (about 25% hits from a revolver, which is why no one uses wheel guns anymore). That means in a full blown shoot out, you can put about 4 rds into (or through and through) a BG, while you can put about 10 rds of puny little 9mm into him. More importantly, if you've got two BGs, you can put 2 rds of .45ACP into each or 5 rds of 9mm each.
3. Being comfortable and competent and confident with the gun and the ammo is probably as important as what you are shooting. (I don't even want to hear about your .22; there are limits.) A couple of goods hits with 9mm, even hardball, beats spraying .45s all over the landscape.
That's just my opinion. I may be wrong.
Some people seem to think that .45ACP has more energy than 9mm Luger. Here are the numbers for common cartridges: www.federalcartridge.com
.45 230gr 850 f/s 370ft*lbs energy
9*19 124gr 1120 f/s 345ft*lbs energy.
However, the .45 was tested with a 5" barrel, while the 9mm was tested with a 4" barrel. test them with the same barrel length and see what happens.
By the way, Power is Work done per unit time. Energy is the ability to do work. I believe a gun's power is equal to rate of fire times bullet energy.
[This message has been edited by No4Mk1* (edited August 16, 2000).]
.45 230gr 850 f/s 370ft*lbs energy
9*19 124gr 1120 f/s 345ft*lbs energy.
However, the .45 was tested with a 5" barrel, while the 9mm was tested with a 4" barrel. test them with the same barrel length and see what happens.
By the way, Power is Work done per unit time. Energy is the ability to do work. I believe a gun's power is equal to rate of fire times bullet energy.
[This message has been edited by No4Mk1* (edited August 16, 2000).]
I never "switched to" 9mm. My Ruger P89 (9mm)is the first handgun I ever shot! I chose 9mm as an "in the middle" caliber that I'd be able to shoot (well I hope), and that my wife might be able to "handle." I also chose 9mm for that availability of inexpensive ammunition. And yes, hi-cap mags factored in as well.
Now, I'm a fair shooter but my wife hates the thing. She has an avertion of all guns though. My next handgun will be .22 22/45.
------------------
...let it snow, let it snow, let it snow!
Now, I'm a fair shooter but my wife hates the thing. She has an avertion of all guns though. My next handgun will be .22 22/45.
------------------
...let it snow, let it snow, let it snow!
BrokenArrow
New member
It works, does the job with less hassle.
If ya think every other HR/CT team in the world is using the 9mm just because it's cheaper, you are dreaming.
They could have anything they want, and they still want the 9mm.
------------------
>>>>---->
http://home.att.net/~brokenarrrow/
If ya think every other HR/CT team in the world is using the 9mm just because it's cheaper, you are dreaming.
They could have anything they want, and they still want the 9mm.
------------------
>>>>---->
http://home.att.net/~brokenarrrow/
As I became more confident of my abilities to keep my cool under stressful situations such as a life-threatening attack and narrowed my shot groups at 5 to 7 yards with rapid fire substantially, I started to carry an M26 and slowly stopped carrying all my .40 guns.
IMNSHO, for one who’s just starting to carry a sidearm, a larger caliber would be a wiser choice – the reason is under enormous stress, stronger recoil and muzzle blast will matter less than the placement of shots. Thus, a hit with .40, .45, or a .357 M in, say, the shoulder of an attacker (which is, practically, a miss from the "stopping" standpoint) will do its job to a somewhat better extent than a hit with a 9 mm or .38 SP.
After an intensive training, for me it became a "double tap in the COM, evaluate, a single head shot"- type of a deal.
IMNSHO, for one who’s just starting to carry a sidearm, a larger caliber would be a wiser choice – the reason is under enormous stress, stronger recoil and muzzle blast will matter less than the placement of shots. Thus, a hit with .40, .45, or a .357 M in, say, the shoulder of an attacker (which is, practically, a miss from the "stopping" standpoint) will do its job to a somewhat better extent than a hit with a 9 mm or .38 SP.
After an intensive training, for me it became a "double tap in the COM, evaluate, a single head shot"- type of a deal.
Ledbetter,
"What did a .45 ACP ever do to you?"
It's not what it did "to" me, it's just that it doesn't do anything *for* me that the 9mm doesn't do.
It (.45ACP) is not more accurate, not more powerful (always a relative term), and certainly not more size efficient.
Also, considering that I fire ALOT of rounds at cardboard targets (in order to give myself the best possible chance of winning, should the worst happen), I appreciate the fact that 9mm bullets cost 50% less than .45s.
The lumbering, obese one (.45ACP) is not a bad cartridge, but...
------------------
Make mine lean, mean, and 9x19!
"What did a .45 ACP ever do to you?"
It's not what it did "to" me, it's just that it doesn't do anything *for* me that the 9mm doesn't do.
It (.45ACP) is not more accurate, not more powerful (always a relative term), and certainly not more size efficient.
Also, considering that I fire ALOT of rounds at cardboard targets (in order to give myself the best possible chance of winning, should the worst happen), I appreciate the fact that 9mm bullets cost 50% less than .45s.
The lumbering, obese one (.45ACP) is not a bad cartridge, but...
------------------
Make mine lean, mean, and 9x19!
Can reload 1,000 rounds for $70. Can buy them for $120 factory.
Effective for self defense, knocks the steel plates down just fine . . .
And is the world's most popular caliber so availability is not a problem.
------------------
The Seattle SharpShooter - TFL/GT/UGW/PCT/KTOG
Effective for self defense, knocks the steel plates down just fine . . .
And is the world's most popular caliber so availability is not a problem.
------------------
The Seattle SharpShooter - TFL/GT/UGW/PCT/KTOG