Question about proper grip, etc.

D

DogoDon

New member
I'm pretty new to shooting. I started to get into it about 15 years ago, but then circumstances made it impractical for me to pursue it. Now I'm getting back into it, and I want to get off to a good start without learning bad habits I'll have to undo later. So I've been reading and watching videos on shooting. I really like Todd Jarrett's videos. He seems to know what he's talking about.

I watched one of his videos on the right way to grip a pistol. One of the things he said is to grip the gun so that the sights are in line with your forearm. When I do that with my Glock, it feels a little weird. If I just naturally "shake hands" with the grip, the sights don't really end up aligned with my forearm. Instead, the sights are pointing to the right relative to the direction of my forearm. Is that a big deal? Is it because I'm doing it wrong, or because of the shape of the Glock grip (mine is a pre-Gen 3 so it doesn't have finger grooves), or something else?

Another question I have is whether my arms should be nearly straight as I aim. I've seen some people who have a considerable amount of bend at their elbows, and others who keep their arms pretty straight. I've also heard that you shouldn't lock your elbows. So should I have my arms almost straight but just not locked?

And another question.:) I understand that keeping both eyes open is essential to having full peripheral vision, but I have a heck of a time focusing on the front sight when both eyes are open. I find I have to close my left eye for a moment in order to let my right eye become dominant and let me light up the sights, and then I can open my left eye. Obviously that's not desirable. Is there some trick to lining up the sights with both eyes open?

Thanks for your help.

DogoDon
 
Sights and forearm: Yes, if you are right-handed, the gun may seem to be pointing slightly right of the forearm - that's OK. Grip it high up (to get the bore axis as close to the forearm as possible). Grip it tight and grip it the same way every time. Don't get into the habit of casually holding the gun - whenever it's in your hand, grip it correctly, or put it down.

Elbows: If you hold your arms straight out (elbows straight), you can see that recoil will tend to drive the muzzle up as the elbows bend. If you hold your elbows out to the sides (bent), the gun will tend to recoil straight back. I find I can maintain the sight picture better and get back on target faster if the gun recoils back instead of up, so I bend my elbows a lot. Either way, lean slightly into the shot so that you aren't moving back off balance under recoil.

Eyes: This is something you have to figure out yourself by shooting. Your eyes may have a pretty narrow window where you can focus on the front sight while seeing the rear sight and target slightly fuzzy. By that I mean that if you hold your elbows out far to the sides, the gun may be too close to your eyes and if you hold your arms straight out, the gun may be too far. So keep this in mind as you decide how much you are going to bend your elbows because that determines how far the gun is from your eyes.

Left hand: You didn't ask, but I like to make sure the bottom of my left hand is pressing TIGHT against the bottom of my right (this is what the back of the grip recoils against), and THEN wrapping the left hand fingers around the front of the right hand. If the grip stays tight under recoil, without shifting, then it's good. If the gun shifts or the hands come apart under recoil, then you need to adjust or tighten the grip.

I think of it like this: 1) make sure the right hand grip is tight, 2) make sure the bottoms of the palms are pressed tightly together behind the gun and 3) make sure the left hand fingers are squeezing the right hand down on the gun.

Don't just form the grip correctly and then forget about it - constantly think about maintaining a perfect grip, just as you constantly concentrate on sight picture and trigger pull.
 
I watched one of his videos on the right way to grip a pistol. One of the things he said is to grip the gun so that the sights are in line with your forearm.
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You hit on one of my biggest peeves with that video. Sure, Todd Jarrett endorses the ol' "in line with your arm grip", as does Jerry Miculek (vid below). For demonstrational purposes, they place the gun in line with their arm, but when they shoot, they assume an isosceles stance, and you can very clearly see the gun isn't in line with their shooting arm. In fact, at least in an isosceles stance, it can't be, since your shooting arm is at a 30degree angle relative to the target. Personally, I think insisting the gun be in line with your arm thing is overrated.

Check out ShootingCoach's vids, particularly the one below on stance. I think they're pretty good. He used to hang out here, IIRC.

http://www.myoutdoortv.com/pdk/web/smith.html?feedPID=00zG15zm84msK0GbWemanhJ0KNWQYqM4

http://www.youtube.com/user/shootingcoach&rclk=cti


As far as eye dominance, I think it's best to keep both eyes open, though I have to admit I have a hard time with it. For me, it takes lots of constant practice. Your brain is having a hard time resolving 2 images, but your brain also hates confusing images, so with time, it figures out which image is correct. That means lots of practice. The good news is that this is entirely do-able at home through dry fire practice.

You can cheat a bit too, by placing a piece of translucent tape over my non-dominant lens, but think it's better in the long run to not get dependent on this.
 
OK

I think it's best to keep both eyes open,
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Yep. There has been a lot of study done over the years about the benefit of both eyes being open. It is particularly beneficial in extended sessions of precision shooting.
As mentioned, it does take practice. Like anything, though, some folk take to it easier than others.
The "inline" with the bones of the arm is way easier to do when shooting onehanded, as in Bullseye target shooting.
That may not be appropriate for Combat or practical shooting oriented practice.
Shooting one handed, my 1911's recoil up and to the left. I try to acquire the sights on the way down so that they are aligned as they settle on the target; again, this may not be appropriate for a situation in which your target might shoot back. I think that I'd want both eyes forward then.
Grip: as high as possible. I set the gun into the web between the thumb and forefinger as "deeply" as I can and roll the lower fingers around the grip.
Pete
 
Follow-up: Range Report

Okay, so I had a chance today to go to a local wildlife/shooting club with a friend from my church. The short pistol range, unfortunately, was full with a CCW class being taught. So we had to shoot on the longer range, where the shortest distance you can shoot is 25 yards! :eek: And here I am, a near rank beginner.

But it was actually pretty good. My friend is an experienced shooter/CCW holder, and we put some holes in paper (and I put one hole in the wood frame that held the cardboard and target. Oops.:o)

Up till now I had been shooting from an isosceles stance, but he shoots a modified Weaver stance, so he had my try that. Frankly it felt kind of weird, but probably only because I wasn't familiar with it.

One thing I learned (and you people with a lot of experience will get a kick out of this) is that I had the wrong idea about the sight picture. I had thought that the idea was to put your front sight right on the point you want to hit (the bullseye). So after a few magazines where I was consistently shooting high, I happened to mention to my friend how I was sighting, and he kindly corrected me. Apparently the bullseye is supposed to sit right on top of the front sight. He likened it to a lollipop. Well, that certainly could make a difference, especially at 25 yards!

So after correcting my approach, I wasn't shooting high. However, it was pretty apparent that throughout the day I was consistently shooting left. My friend said that was probably because of my trigger pull not being a squeeze straight back, which made sense to me. I'll have to work on that.

Anyway, I did have a chance to work on the things the various posters suggested. It was hard to compare to my previous range visits, because up to now the longest distance I had shot was 10 yards. Well, 25 yards is pretty darn intimidating, that's for sure!

My last 15 rounds, though, were pretty satisfying. I was shooting a paper target that measured about 12 x 12 inches. I put 12 rounds somewhere on the paper. I was actually pretty proud of myself!

That's all for now. Oh, one more thing. My friend let me shoot his Springfield XD. I must say, it fits my hand much better than my Glock 23. So maybe that might be a better match for me. Thanks for reading. Any suggestions are most welcome.

DogoDon
 
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Eyes

Both eyes open, always. Handgun, rifle, shotgun, open sights or scope.

Dogodon, you're off to a good start, good questions.
 
Yeah - 25 yards is tough with a handgun, and not just for beginners.

Apparently the bullseye is supposed to sit right on top of the front sight. He likened it to a lollipop.
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That's the standard sight picture and definitely where you should start. However, if you shoot a gun with fixed sights, especially a 38 Special where a wide range of bullet weights are used, you may find that you have to do something else because the impact point will move up or down depending on bullet weight. I have a PPK/S that puts a .380 ACP bullet in the bullseye if I put the front sight ON the bullseye instead of under it.
 
MrBorland and others,

There is another thread here about eye dominance. I commented that I had not heard about avoiding one-eyed shooting, and here it is again.

I'm cross dominant, and when my instructor was determining my eye dominance, he asked me if I saw double with both eyes open. I did, and that's when I started closing one eye. I think he did say that it was "preferable" to keep both eyes open, if possible.

It sounds like maybe this is something that can be overcome with practice. I will try to work on this, starting tonight with some dry-firing.

Thanks fellas.
 
Dogo -

Thanks for the update. Yeah, 25 yards is tough starting out, but it sounds like you did fine, and had fun.

I had thought that the idea was to put your front sight right on the point you want to hit (the bullseye)...Apparently the bullseye is supposed to sit right on top of the front sight. He likened it to a lollipop.
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Both sight pictures are valid. The first is a "center hold", and the second a "6 o'clock hold". With adjustable sights, you can adjust the POI, so the correct one to use is the one that works best for you. I think fashionable bullseye shooters may even be using a sub-6 o'clock hold nowadays. The important thing is to consistently align the front sight relative to the rear.

Up till now I had been shooting from an isosceles stance, but he shoots a modified Weaver stance, so he had my try that.
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Like a "center" or "6 o'clock" hold, the "best" is probably what works best for you, so experiment a bit. Don't adopt one stance or the other just because a firearms instructor or competitive shooter uses it. That being said, the standard stances developed because they work, so if you've developed some funky variant of your own, it's very likely it can be improved upon by getting closer to the standard.


I'm cross dominant, and when my instructor was determining my eye dominance, he asked me if I saw double with both eyes open. I did, and that's when I started closing one eye. I think he did say that it was "preferable" to keep both eyes open, if possible.
Click to expand...

Both eyes open is preferable, IMO, and cross-dominant shooters may have a tough time of it. I'm cross-dominant, and learned to shoot righty. On top of that, my right eye really isn't all that dominant, so the image coming from my left eye comes in loud and clear. It takes a lot of practice for my brain to figure it all out so I can comfortably shoot with both eyes open.

Check out ShootingCoach's video on cross-dominance on that link above. He suggests the easiest way to shoot cross-dominant it to turn your head and even close the other eye. Again, I'm no expert, but it seems to me that while it's true it may be the "easiest" solution, it may not be the "best" solution, in the long-term, for a number of reasons (see link).

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3265087&postcount=19
 
Thanks to all for the good tips and encouragement. One thing I have realized is that 40S&W is too much for me as a beginner. I have ordered a .22 lr conversion kit for my Glock 23, so when I get it (a 12-week backorder, unfortunately :mad:) I'll start using it for most of my practice.

DogoDon
 
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