Question about firearms purchase and legality - Straw Man Sale?

Kimio

New member
Okay, this may sound odd.

I am currently stationed outside of the US where I am not legally allowed to have a POF on base (Due to country laws). There is a handgun I'd like to purchase, but seeing as I'm several thousand miles away from the nearest firearms store, I was looking to have my step father purchase the firearm for me.

I am not legally barred from owning a weapon, but I am not 100% sure if this would constitute a straw mans sale of a firearm.

What exactly is the legality here of me giving the funds to my step father (who is also legally allowed to own/purchase a firearm) and holding onto it until I eventually come back state side?

Could someone please help point me to the official legal wording so that I can take a look at it for myself?
 
See Ettin's post of a couple of days ago, should have all the information you need. Short answer is, yes, giving the money to a relative to buy and hold for you is a straw purchase. Using his own money and holding it as a gift would not be a straw purchase.

Ettin post :

" Buying with an intent to resell is not what makes a straw purchase.

Let me again lay out my explanation of what a straw purchase is. This reflects current law consistent with Abramski.

The actual offense, under the Gun Control Act of 1968, is violation of 18 USC 922(a)(6), making a false statement on the 4473 (specifically about who is the actual buyer), and has nothing to do with the ultimate recipient being a prohibited person.

See the ATF publication Federal Firearms Regulation Reference Guide, 2005, at page 165 (emphasis added):
Quote:
15. STRAW PURCHASES

Questions have arisen concerning the lawfulness of firearms purchases from licensees by persons who use a "straw purchaser" (another person) to acquire the firearms. Specifically, the actual buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute the Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser of the firearm. In some instances, a straw purchaser is used because the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. That is to say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other prohibited categories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms or is a resident of a State other than that in which the licensee's business premises is located. Because of his or her disability, the person uses a straw purchaser who is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm from the licensee. In other instances, neither the straw purchaser nor the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm.

In both instances, the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm, as well as the actual purchaser's residence address and date of birth. The actual purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser to acquire a firearm has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of the false statements. The licensee selling the firearm under these circumstances also violates Federal law if the licensee is aware of the false statements on the form. It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located, are not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms, and could have lawfully purchased firearms...

So, if --

X says to Y, "Here's the money; buy that gun and then we'll do the transfer to me [when I get back to town, or whenever else].", or


X says to Y, "Buy that gun and hold it for me; I'll buy from you when I get my next paycheck."
or anything similar, if Y then buys the gun, he is not the actual buyer. He is buying the gun as the agent of X, on his behalf; and X is legally the actual buyer. If Y claims on the 4473 that he is the actual buyer, he has lied and violated 18 USC 922(a)(6). His subsequently transferring the gun to X in full compliance with the law, does not erase his prior criminal act of lying on the 4473.

Some more examples --

If X takes his own money, buys the gun and gives the gun to someone else as a gift, free and clear without reimbursement of any kind, X is the actual purchaser; and it is not a straw purchase.


If X takes his money and buys the gun honestly intending to keep it for himself and later sells it to another person, X is the actual purchaser; and it is not a straw purchase.


If X takes his money and buys the gun intending to take it to the gun show next week to see if he might be able to sell it to someone at a profit, X is the actual purchaser; and it's not a straw purchase. He may, however have other problems if he manages to sell the gun at the gun show, and the transfer there isn't handled properly. He might also have problems if he does this sort of thing too frequently, and the ATF decides he's acting as a dealer without the necessary license.


If X takes his money and buys the gun with the understanding that he is going to transfer the gun to Y and that Y is going to reimburse him for it, X is not the actual purchaser. He is advancing X the money and buying the gun for and on behalf of Y, as Y's agent. So this would be an illegal straw purchase.

Whether or not a transaction is an unlawful straw purpose will often be a question of intent. But prosecutors in various situations can convince juries of intent, often from circumstantial evidence. A slip of the tongue, posting something on the Internet, tracks left by money transfers have all, in one way or another, and in various contexts, helped convince a jury of intent.

It would also be unlawful to buy a gun privately (without a 4473) for the purpose of transferring the gun to a prohibited person.
"
 
From the ATF FAQ site:


What is a straw purchase?

A straw purchase is an illegal firearm purchase where the actual buyer of the gun, being unable to pass the required federal background check or desiring to not have his or her name associated with the transaction, uses a proxy buyer who can pass the required background check to purchase the firearm for him/her. It is highly illegal and punishable by a $250,000 fine and 10 years in prison.
 
The scenario you spell out is considered to be a straw purchase. Whether or not the recipient is lawfully permitted to possess the firearm is immaterial; the issue is that the buyer will have to lie on question 11.a. of the Form 4473:
Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm on behalf of another person.
(Boldface from original version, downloaded from here.)

The relevant statute is 18 U.S. Code § 922(a)(6):
(a) It shall be unlawful—

[(1) through (5) omitted]

(6) for any person in connection with the acquisition or attempted acquisition of any firearm or ammunition from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, knowingly to make any false or fictitious oral or written statement or to furnish or exhibit any false, fictitious, or misrepresented identification, intended or likely to deceive such importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector with respect to any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale or other disposition of such firearm or ammunition under the provisions of this chapter...
Federal courts—notably including the SCOTUS in Abramski v. United States (2014)—have ruled that the actual buyer's identity is a "fact material to the lawfulness of the sale", that the underlying intent of Congress was for this information to be accurately recorded on the 4473, and that making it illegal for the (straw) buyer to "knowingly furnish... misrepresented identification" is a legitimate means to ensure accurate record-keeping.

For more information, I suggest Googling "Abramski v. United States" and reading for yourself.
 
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Just wait to buy it when you get home. Chances are it's not one of kind and there'll be plenty more of them. It's not like you can use it until you get back anyway. Never understood the rush to buy something you can't use for who knows how long.

But everyone else already gave you an answer. You're stepfather would have to lie on the form and that's a felony.
 
While the intent of the law seems clear, the law as written and passed is ...less so...

If an argument can be made, due to the transfer of funds, that the FIL (or whoever) is NOT the ACTUAL purchaser of the gun, then a violation of law may have occurred, and a court will be the place that gets decided.

The crime, is lying on the federal form, and all the details of the straw purchase are only relevant as they relate to whether or not the purchaser lied on the form. Neither you, nor your FIL get to decide this, if the question comes up, the legal system does. What you or I might see as a gift could be seen as a violation of law, in court, depending on the specific circumstances.

It IS still legal to buy a firearm and give it as a gift, but all the legal particulars must be followed, or it could be a crime.

The simplest and easiest, and the one that avoids any hint of breaking the law is simply wait until YOU can personally buy (and receive) the gun you want.

You could contact a dealer, and through them, make arrangements to have the desired gun held for you until you get home (on leave or rotation), and "buy" it then. It will likely cost a bit more, but done correctly will be entirely legal.

hope this helps
 
Kimio said:
What exactly is the legality here of me giving the funds to my step father (who is also legally allowed to own/purchase a firearm) and holding onto it until I eventually come back state side?
IANAL, but it seems to me that the legality here is zero. In fact, what you describe is the exact, poster child example of a straw purchase.

Remember the question on the 4473: "Are you the actual purchaser?" How is your step-father going to answer this question, with your money in his pocket?
 
Ok, legal beagles. Does a person have to be "physically present" at the FFL in order for the transfer to be legal? In the case of the OP, if the firearm in question is at a dealer in his home state, can he legally buy the gun himself (perhaps mailing in the signed 4473) and then allow the father to store it until he gets home? In this case, nobody is lying on the 4473. The OP is the both the purchaser and the intended long-term owner. He just isn't physically present to hand carry the gun from the dealer to his father for storage.
 
Not physically present?

So just how does the buyer, not present, affix a signature to the form?

And just how does the FFL not consider this to be a straw purchase? Someone claiming to be the actual buyer is going on record as the purchaser, but another party is present at the counter and is taking delivery of the gun.

If you want this gun and can't wait to get one, call up your favorite dealer and arrange for the dealer to tuck one of these guns away, NIB, in his safe for you, awaiting your return and completion of the sale.
 
So just how does the buyer, not present, affix a signature to the form?

Like I said, mail in the signed 4473. Real estate closings are done remotely all the time - no physical presence required. I don't see anything in the law that requires physical presence - just residence and a signed 4473.
 
Doyle said:
...Does a person have to be "physically present" at the FFL in order for the transfer to be legal?...
Basically, yes. See 18 USC 922(c), emphasis added:
(c) In any case not otherwise prohibited by this chapter, a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer may sell a firearm to a person who does not appear in person at the licensee’s business premises (other than another licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer) only if

(1) the transferee submits to the transferor a sworn statement in the following form:

“Subject to penalties provided by law, I swear that, in the case of any firearm other than a shotgun or a rifle, I am twenty-one years or more of age, or that, in the case of a shotgun or a rifle, I am eighteen years or more of age; that I am not prohibited by the provisions of chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, from receiving a firearm in interstate or foreign commerce; and that my receipt of this firearm will not be in violation of any statute of the State and published ordinance applicable to the locality in which I reside. Further, the true title, name, and address of the principal law enforcement officer of the locality to which the firearm will be delivered are ____________

_______________________
Signature _________ Date ____.”​

and containing blank spaces for the attachment of a true copy of any permit or other information required pursuant to such statute or published ordinance;

(2) the transferor has, prior to the shipment or delivery of the firearm, forwarded by registered or certified mail (return receipt requested) a copy of the sworn statement, together with a description of the firearm, in a form prescribed by the Attorney General, to the chief law enforcement officer of the transferee’s place of residence, and has received a return receipt evidencing delivery of the statement or has had the statement returned due to the refusal of the named addressee to accept such letter in accordance with United States Post Office Department regulations; and

(3) the transferor has delayed shipment or delivery for a period of at least seven days following receipt of the notification of the acceptance or refusal of delivery of the statement.​

A copy of the sworn statement and a copy of the notification to the local law enforcement officer, together with evidence of receipt or rejection of that notification shall be retained by the licensee as a part of the records required to be kept under section 923(g).

I've never heard of that actually being done. Has anyone?

Kimio said:
...I was looking to have my step father purchase the firearm for me.

I am not legally barred from owning a weapon, but I am not 100% sure if this would constitute a straw mans sale of a firearm.

What exactly is the legality here of me giving the funds to my step father...
I am 100% certain that this would constitute an illegal straw purchase.

Angel Alvarez wanted a Glock. Because his nephew, Bruce Abramski, could get one cheaper with a law enforcement discount, Mr. Alvarez bought the Glock through Mr. Abramski, giving Mr. Abramski the money for it. Mr. Abramski bought the Glock and transferred it to his uncle through an FFL (it was an interstate transfer). Mr. Abramki went to jail for lying on the 4473 (Abramski v. US, 134 S. Ct. 2259 (2014)).

To repeat:

Let me again lay out my explanation of what a straw purchase is. This reflects current law consistent with Abramski.

The actual offense, under the Gun Control Act of 1968, is violation of 18 USC 922(a)(6), making a false statement on the 4473 (specifically about who is the actual buyer), and has nothing to do with the ultimate recipient being a prohibited person.

See the ATF publication Federal Firearms Regulation Reference Guide, 2005, at page 165 (emphasis added):
15. STRAW PURCHASES

Questions have arisen concerning the lawfulness of firearms purchases from licensees by persons who use a "straw purchaser" (another person) to acquire the firearms. Specifically, the actual buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute the Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser of the firearm. In some instances, a straw purchaser is used because the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. That is to say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other prohibited categories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms or is a resident of a State other than that in which the licensee's business premises is located. Because of his or her disability, the person uses a straw purchaser who is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm from the licensee. In other instances, neither the straw purchaser nor the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm.

In both instances, the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm, as well as the actual purchaser's residence address and date of birth. The actual purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser to acquire a firearm has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of the false statements. The licensee selling the firearm under these circumstances also violates Federal law if the licensee is aware of the false statements on the form. It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located, are not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms, and could have lawfully purchased firearms...

So, if --

  1. X says to Y, "Here's the money; buy that gun and then we'll do the transfer to me [when I get back to town, or whenever else].", or

  2. X says to Y, "Buy that gun and hold it for me; I'll buy from you when I get my next paycheck."
or anything similar, if Y then buys the gun, he is not the actual buyer. He is buying the gun as the agent of X, on his behalf; and X is legally the actual buyer. If Y claims on the 4473 that he is the actual buyer, he has lied and violated 18 USC 922(a)(6). His subsequently transferring the gun to X in full compliance with the law, does not erase his prior criminal act of lying on the 4473.

Some more examples --

  • If X takes his own money, buys the gun and gives the gun to someone else as a gift, free and clear without reimbursement of any kind, X is the actual purchaser; and it is not a straw purchase.

  • If X takes his money and buys the gun honestly intending to keep it for himself and later sells it to another person, X is the actual purchaser; and it is not a straw purchase.

  • If X takes his money and buys the gun intending to take it to the gun show next week to see if he might be able to sell it to someone at a profit, X is the actual purchaser; and it's not a straw purchase. He may, however have other problems if he manages to sell the gun at the gun show, and the transfer there isn't handled properly. He might also have problems if he does this sort of thing too frequently, and the ATF decides he's acting as a dealer without the necessary license.

  • If X takes his money and buys the gun with the understanding that he is going to transfer the gun to Y and that Y is going to reimburse him for it, X is not the actual purchaser. He is advancing X the money and buying the gun for and on behalf of Y, as Y's agent. So this would be an illegal straw purchase.

Whether or not a transaction is an unlawful straw purpose will often be a question of intent. But prosecutors in various situations can convince juries of intent, often from circumstantial evidence. A slip of the tongue, posting something on the Internet, tracks left by money transfers have all, in one way or another, and in various contexts, helped convince a jury of intent.

It would also be unlawful to buy a gun privately (without a 4473) for the purpose of transferring the gun to a prohibited person.
 
Thank you everyone for the replies. To avoid any trouble, I'll just wait until I get back state side.

Hopefully I'll be able to pick up the handgun locally or have one shipped relatively quickly whenever I get back home either on leave or whatever.
 
Possibly a silly question

If the gun is one that is hard to find or rare, or perhaps a used model at a great price, would your local FFL be willing to allow you to send him/her the money while they hold the item in stock until the end of your deployment? If you can get the money to your Stepfather, would you also be able to get it to them?

Further, could your stepfather pay for the gun (assuming you can't the funds to the FFL), with the aforementioned arrangement, and then you arrive after your deployment to complete the 4473?
 
JimmyR said:
If the gun is one that is hard to find or rare, or perhaps a used model at a great price, would your local FFL be willing to allow you to send him/her the money while they hold the item in stock until the end of your deployment? If you can get the money to your Stepfather, would you also be able to get it to them?
I did this once, about twelve years ago when I was out of the country for several months and found a pistol I wanted on-line at a gun shop near my home. I contacted the FFL, agreed on the price, somehow had a deposit transferred to him (don't remember how I did that -- sorry -- but it did not involve any third party to muddy the waters), and picked it up when I got home. If you made payment in full up front, I would think most FFLs would be happy to hold it for you.

Further, could your stepfather pay for the gun (assuming you can't the funds to the FFL), with the aforementioned arrangement, and then you arrive after your deployment to complete the 4473?
This sounds seriously "iffy" to me.

With the availability of on-line banking and on-line bill pay, just about anyone can have a check sent anywhere directly out of their own bank account, without involving any middleman.
 
This sounds seriously "iffy" to me.

With the availability of on-line banking and on-line bill pay, just about anyone can have a check sent anywhere directly out of their own bank account, without involving any middleman.

I know, it kinda sounds iffy to me as well, but as I don't know what the OP (or the FFL in question) has access to in terms of online payment or money exchange, I don't see where it would be illegal, based on Frank's summation of straw purchases, particularly with the section on what law is actually being violated:

The actual offense, under the Gun Control Act of 1968, is violation of 18 USC 922(a)(6), making a false statement on the 4473 (specifically about who is the actual buyer), and has nothing to do with the ultimate recipient being a prohibited person.
 
JimmyR said:
I know, it kinda sounds iffy to me as well, but as I don't know what the OP (or the FFL in question) has access to in terms of online payment or money exchange, I don't see where it would be illegal, based on Frank's summation of straw purchases, particularly with the section on what law is actually being violated:
You don't see the violation?

What's the first question on the 4473? "Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form?"

In your proposal, the stepfather pays the money, but Kimio then accepts transfer of the firearm. To the BATFE, you can pretty much bet that they would say the stepfather (he who provided the money) is the actual purchaser, not Kimio, so Kimio would be lying when he answers "Yes" to the first question.

Here's a link to the form 4473. The form has explanations for the questions. The explanation for that question says:

Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party. ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer “NO” to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer “YES” to question 11.a. However, you may not transfer a firearm to any person you know or have reasonable cause to believe is prohibited under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g), (n), or (x). Please note: EXCEPTION: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b.
 
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So cant Kimio step father buy it and have it ffl put in his name and then when Kimio comes home his step father sells it to him and transfers ffl ownership to him? (private sale)
 
tynman said:
So cant Kimio step father buy it and have it ffl put in his name and then when Kimio comes home his step father sells it to him and transfers ffl ownership to him? (private sale)
NO. If someone purchases a firearm from a FFL with the intent to give it to a specific recipient in return for compensation (or a promise thereof), it is a straw purchase. The recipient is the actual buyer rather than the purchaser.

IOW it's a question of the purchaser's intent, NOT a question of when or where the money changes hands between the purchaser and the actual buyer.
 
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Find a store that does layaway or that will hold your purchase until you physically are able to pick it up. Probably a local gun shop would do it for a deployed serviceman.
 
^^^ IMHO some combination of layaway and check payment are probably the best suggestions that have come up in this thread.

Even if the transaction technically complies with the letter and spirit of the law, having an intermediary deliver a stack of cash to the dealer is going to seem hinky and may set off proverbial alarm bells. :( Using a check makes it clear who the money is coming from.
 
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