Question about concealed carry in a Post Office

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HowardCohodas

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Robert Louis Williamson’s Weblog (Rob the Lawyer Criminal Defense Blog)

Recently I’ve been asked about carrying a firearm into a Post Office. Most people think this is illegal because most Postal facilities have a “No Guns Allowed” sign on the front entrance. I did some research on this, and found that it is in fact, NOT illegal to carry a firearm into a Post Office as long as certain conditions are met.
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Question about concealed carry in a Post Office « Robert Louis Williamson’s Weblog
 
I havent seen the inside of a post office in a while. I do remember the last time I was there, so many no firearms signs were posted you'd think you were going into an embassy or airport.
 
I've never seen a no firearms sign in any of the post offices around here. Even if I did though it wouldn't change that I always carry in them anyways.
 
The applicable law is 39 CFR 232.1

(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

<snip>

(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and regulations in this section while on property under the charge and control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated.
 
here's what I found

First off, I'm not a lawyer, this is just my findings. Do your own research and make your own decisions on legal matters.

Remember 39 CFR 232.1 is from the Code of Federal Regulations. The regulations are not laws passed by Congress. Regulations are written by executive branch officials (often cabinet level) in order for the various departments to carry out the laws passed by Congress.

When I looked up 39 CFR 232.1, the following was listed as its authority:

18 USC 13
21 USC 802 and 844
39 USC 401 and 403(b)(3) and 404(a)(7) and 1201(2)

None of these citations say anything about the carry of firearms. The sections from title 21 deal with illegal drugs. The sections from title 39 deal with postal service, but say nothing about gun carry. 18 USC 13 is the interesting one, it deals with federal properties within states. Here is sub-section a:

(a) Whoever within or upon any of the places now existing or hereafter reserved or acquired as provided in section 7 of this title, or on, above, or below any portion of the territorial sea of the United States not within the jurisdiction of any State, Commonwealth, territory, possession, or district is guilty of any act or omission which, although not made punishable by any enactment of Congress, would be punishable if committed or omitted within the jurisdiction of the State, Territory, Possession, or District in which such place is situated, by the laws thereof in force at the time of such act or omission, shall be guilty of a like offense and subject to a like punishment.

The only federal law that could really apply would be 18 USC 930 as read in whole (not just partial as displayed on the post office wall).

In my humble opinion, what all of this means is that if you can lawfully carry out on the street just outside the post office, you can do it in the post office.

Now if you get spotted packing in the post office, you may get harrassed even if you are in the right.
 
Remember 39 CFR 232.1 is from the Code of Federal Regulations. The regulations are not laws passed by Congress. Regulations are written by executive branch officials (often cabinet level) in order for the various departments to carry out the laws passed by Congress.
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The CFR is no less of a law than the USC. Administrative law exists because the United States Congress often grants broad authority to executive branch agencies to interpret the statutes in the United States Code (and in uncodified statutes) which the agencies are entrusted with enforcing. Congress may be too busy to micromanage the jurisdiction of those agencies by writing statutes that cover every possible detail, or Congress may determine that the technical specialists at the agency are best equipped to develop detailed applications of statutes to particular fact patterns as they arise.

Under the Administrative Procedure Act, the agencies are permitted to promulgate detailed rules and regulations through a public "rulemaking" process where the public is allowed to comment, known as public information. After a period of time, the rules and regulations are usually published in the Federal Register. The regulations of BATFE and the IRS are both found in the CFR.

The regulations are treated by the courts as being as legally binding as statutory law, provided the regulations are a reasonable interpretation of the underlying statutes. The SCOTUS has ruled on this before.

Once you have violated a Regulation found in the CFR, you are no longer engaged in "other lawful purposes" which would exempt you from the other Federal and State laws. Like a tax protester, violate the CFR at your own risk.
 
So when I looked up the regulation, the statutory authority cited said nothing about gun carry. Now when someone is involved in some area of regulatory law, he can get in trouble for violating regulations, but have you ever seen where one was criminally charge with violating the regulations or was he charged with violating the statutes under which the regs had their authority? If I were somehow caught with a concealed gun in the post office, could I be criminally charged with violating the regulation, or would they press charges under one of the authoritative statues? Which one? In the court cases I've read, I've only seen people criminally charged with violating statutes, not regulation. Violation of regs can result in civil action.
 
Since the regulation says:

(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and regulations in this section while on property under the charge and control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated.
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What do you think? This plainly places a criminal (30 days in jail is not a civil penalty) penalty for violating the CFR. Since violating the CFR also means that you are no longer carrying out an "other lawful purpose" you are also violating the USC and probably a state law or two as well.

edited:
FYI: The often cited 18 USC 930 is not the controlling law here. The controlling law is 39 USC 410, which reads:

(a) Except as provided by subsection (b) of this section, and except as otherwise provided in this title or insofar as such laws remain in force as rules or regulations of the Postal Service, no Federal law dealing with public or Federal contracts, property, works, officers, employees, budgets, or funds, including the provisions of chapters 5 and 7 of title 5, shall apply to the exercise of the powers of the Postal Service.

(b) The following provisions shall apply to the Postal Service:

(1) section 552 (public information), section 552a (records about individuals), section 552b (open meetings), section 3102 (employment of personal assistants for blind, deaf, or otherwise handicapped employees), section 3110 (restrictions on employment of relatives), section 3333 and chapters 72 (antidiscrimination; right to petition Congress) and 73 (suitability, security, and conduct of employees), section 5520 (withholding city income or employment taxes), and section 5532 (dual pay) of title 5, except that no regulation issued under such chapters or section shall apply to the Postal Service unless expressly made applicable;
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I know we all want post office carry, but the law is what it is.
 
If the state in which the post office is located prohibits gun carry in the post office, then 18 USC 13 would apply, which would make gun carry a criminal offence.

Have you ever seen criminal charges where someone was charged with violation of regulations and not statutes?

So the head person of the postal service could have written into the regulations, "it shall be unlawful to not smile and greet the postal employee when approaching a service counter, violation of such shall result in a fine not to exceed $100,000 and imprisonment not to exceed twenty years". But with no statute passed by congress making such thing criminal, that reg would have no authority. So again, the statutes listed as the authority for 39CFR 232.1 say nothing about gun carry.

39 USC 410 deals with matters involving the Postal Service, not private citizens. I'm not a US Postal Service employee.

I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, just my personal findings and opinions.
 
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Three rules to live by.

1. You are the sole person responsible for your safety.
2. Do your best to follow all laws.
3. Concealed means concealed.
 
Have you ever seen criminal charges where someone was charged with violation of regulations and not statutes?
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No, because a violation of the regulation IS a violation of the statute. If you are violating the regulation, you are not there for a "legal purpose"

I tell all of you what, carry in a post office, get caught, and tell us how it works out. or, you can consult an actual lawyer (as opposed to armchair internet attorneys- myself included) and see what the answer is.
 
divemedic's right! I sometimes forget I'm carrying and unintentionally carry in my p.o., when checking my p.o. box. Unless some out-of-town inspector were to catch me, nothing would be said by the locals, if they did notice my bulge.
 
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