Question about calibres and accuracy

B

BillD

New member
I'm fairly new to this game so you guys advice is much appreciated. I've had a Browning Medalist .22 pistol for a bit over a year, and have been shooting bullseye competion with it. So my emphasis is on accuracy.

I'm thinking it's time to get a bigger calibre gun. I'd allways thought a 9mm was a good idea but talented shooters at the pistol club seem to have real trouble getting the right load and projectile to work with their 9mms and getting bad groupings and tumbing projectiles. They are using Berettas and CZs mainly. I'm a bit put off the 9mm because if they can't shoot well with them I certainly won't be able to.

Maybe I should be looking at a 1911 type gun in .38 Super, or a S&W model 52 in .38 Special. I shoot well with a S&W 686 revolver in .38 Special. I'm planning on getting a .45 acp but wanted something I can fire a lot of shots with and not get too knocked around.

Someone around here is selling a Sig 225 X five that has fired about 3,000 rounds. Is this gun getting too old?
 
Well, I can't speak for the members of your club but I have a CZ 75B SA and it's a wonderful handgun, capable of great accuracy. I've not had an experience with tumbling rounds or keyholing. Lately, I've been firing Remington UMC 115 gr. FMJ ammo with it, which it seems to like just fine.

I wouldn't necessarily use the 75 B SA for bullseye competition. It has fixed sights and that arguably might be a disadvantage when shooting at 25 yards. I find that the gun will shoot a little high or low depending on the round that I fire with it and I have to make mental adjustments concerning where I place my front sights. On the other hand, the gun is almost boringly consistent, putting round after round within a fraction of an inch of each other.

CZ makes target and competition models that include guns with adjustable sights. I'd check them out.
 
A .45acp won't "knock you around", particularly in the lighter bullet weights and modest loads that match shooters prefer. Match loads are typically modest in power and using slugs in the 185 grain range. The recoil is light.

If you look at Bullseye competition (at least in the US), it's entirely dominated by 1911's in 45 acp. The design of the pistol and cartridge, just lends itself to great accuracy. If you want to compete, that combination is the starting point.
 
Thanks for the good advice guys. I like what I hear about the CZ SP-01, so that may be an option.


Maybe I should just go straight to .45acp and load it down like you suggest. I like the full sized stainless 1911s like Cold Cups and a friend has a nice Kimber that he shoots well with.
 
Bill, I'm a 5'7" female who prefers (and carries) a revolver most of the time. My husband's Springfield 1911 is a joy to shoot, however. The second time I ever shot it, at 10 yards I shot a grouping about 1" across, and I was shooting self defense rounds. With target rounds, it's even easier to control. You shouldn't be afraid of the larger calibers, certainly not til you've tried them. :-)

By the way, my husband also has a 9mm gun (Springfield XD-M) that he loves. I can't handle it as well, but he regularly shoots ragged holes rather than "groups" at the range. This is a match-grade gun, and he's considering entering competition with it. So don't rule out 9mm either -- find somebody (or a range) that will let you try out various guns and see what you like.
 
Thanks Sakeneko, looking and learning LOL, that's what I'm doing. Actually I've just come back from the pistol club and a guy gave me a shoot with his S&W model 52 using .38 wadcutters. That gun was NICE. I'll carry on doing tryouts of others guns :)
 
Hi Bill - there is no intrinsic accuracy problem with the 9mm, and it's also cheaper to feed than .45ACP, so you can practice more with it.

If you want to shoot bullseye (and have a few $ for the gun), some 9mm semi's to inquire about are:
  1. S&W 952
  2. CZ-75 Tactical Sport
  3. Sig Arms 226 X-Five
 
CF

Bill: You are shooting Bullseye matches. You are ultimately going to need a .45 if you are serious. You can do what many people do with a 1911 and shoot it for the CF matches as well as the .45 matches.
As to the 9mms as mentioned. All the guns mentioned are good shooters. That does not mean that they are appropriate for "conventional pistol" match shooting. Can you use them? Of course. The better question is "Do the winners use them?" If you look around, I think that you will find that the answer is "no". The very fact that shooters in your club are having troubles developing accurate loads is useful info. Mt. Competition of PA was producing an accurized Beretta 92 for Leg Matches. That gun was capable of 50 yard x-ring groups. That is the only accurized 9mm with which I am familiar.
The Sig in the list above might be worth looking at (of course, there is the Sig P210 - if you can find one and have a couple of grand to spend)
What are the winners shooting in the CF stages? The Smith 52 is a classic - very fine.

Someone around here is selling a Sig 225 X five that has fired about 3,000 rounds. Is this gun getting too old?
Click to expand...
I should hope not. At 3K rounds it's still a baby. My Colt Gold Cup has more than 50K rounds through it and still shoots better than I can hold. Bullseye match rounds are much kinder to a gun than factory ammo.
Pete
 
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I'd be willing to bet the tumbling rounds and inaccuracy problems with the 9mm

is more the hand loaders experimenting than anything else.

I've shot a lot of factory 9mm and never seen one key hole...
 
I'm thinking it's time to get a bigger calibre gun. I'd allways thought a 9mm was a good idea but talented shooters at the pistol club seem to have real trouble getting the right load and projectile to work with their 9mms and getting bad groupings and tumbing projectiles. They are using Berettas and CZs mainly. I'm a bit put off the 9mm because if they can't shoot well with them I certainly won't be able to.
Click to expand...

The tumbling projectiles is someone experimenting badly with handloads. Factory loads don't do that.

The Beretta 92FS while beautiful, and great for practical work, is not suitable to bullseye competition without special modifications to the front end to improve the shot-to-shot barrel alignment reproducibility, which makes a great difference. See this article on modifications at GunTests, for example:
http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/oct97shootbetter.html
 
Unless you "legged out" you have to consider a CMP EIC Legal pistol for bullseye shooting. That means a Berretta 92 style, or USGI type 1911. You need to check the CMP rules governing EIC legal pistols. There are some good Berretta 92 type pistols out there but to get one to shoot, you are talking money.

A 1911 CMP would be cheaper to get to shoot, and no law says they have to use heavy, full blown ACP loads. The Leg Match calls for 230 RN Jacketed Bullets, but say nothing about how much powder. I use 3.8 Grns of Bullseye Powder. Its a mild load and does well even at 50 yards. Its not like when CMP was DCM and they furnished Hard Ball for the EIC matches.

Also, if you are shooting Bullseye pistol, to shoot the complete 2700 you are gonna have to shoot the 45 Event. You can shoot the 45 in Center Fire, so you can effectively shoot a 2700 with two pistols, you 22 and a 45.

If you arnt worried about the 45 match or EIC matches, and can find a Smith Model 52, you wont find a more accurate CF pistol. Those suckers are smooth.

But if you are serious about Bullseye shooting, you are gonna have to have a 45. Might as well make it EIC legal.

My Bullseye Pistols consist of a Series 70 Gold Cup, (45 & EIC Matches) Smith Model 52 for CF, and a High Standard Victor for the 22 matches.

2700.jpg
 
There are truly only accurate guns.


I own a super-accurate Nowlin-barreled EAA Witness in 9x19; I own one Kart-barreled Springfield Armory 45 ACP 1911 set up for Bullseye; I own one BarSto-barreled Caspian 45 ACP 1911.
I own some other accurate guns, too.....
 
The great advice is much appreciated.

I think I may go down the 1911 road and use lighter loads then look out for a S&W model 52 in nice condition over the next year or so. I've been spoiled owning a Browning Medalist .22 as my first pistol as it's very accurate.
 
.22 pistols are usually very accurate, due, in part to the fixed barrel design. Going to a larger caliber with a tilting barrel design means there are more things in the make up of the gun that can affect accuracy.

Also, getting a good trigger pull for target work from a gun that began life as a service pistol design requires skillful tuning. Sometimes its done at the factory, sometimes by a skilled 'smith.

The model 52 is a fine target gun, .38Spl, wadcutter only. If you have to use it for anything other than paper, it is not as satisfactory. A target grade .45ACP is still a .45ACP, and can, in a pinch, do what .45s are famous for doing, namely, self defense. Just something to consider.
 
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