i have a friend who wants to sell about 15 different guns pistols and rifles at really reasonable prices. i made an offer for all of them as i would like to sell them on gunbroker. i live in pa and he lives in delaware. is there any legal issues as far as buying so many at one time or is there a problem with me selling so many as i have no ffl
question about buying more than one
- Thread starter vicvic
- Start date
You're going to have to get an FFL involved if you actually want to take possession of the guns - you cannot buy them from another individual across state lines without an FFL. If there's more than one handgun, the dealer on your end will have to do a multiple sales form on you as well as the usual 4473 and PICS check. To save time, expense and avoid any appearance of dealing w/o a license (however small a risk it may be) have the guns transfered from the seller to your dealer, and once sold, have your dealer ship them out to whoever buys from you (you never actually take possession of the guns).
Hint...
If you are buying guns for the purpose of resale, you ARE DEALING in firearms.
If you do not have an FFL, you could be subject to criminal prosecution! The BATF(E) kind of makes it's own rules on how many gun transactions (in a year) make a "dealer". At one time the magic number was 10. I'm sure it is something else today. Tomorrow it may be yet another number.
People selling all or part of their personal collection are not usually bothered. Even if it is a fairly large number of guns. Other than in "one gun a month" states, there is no restriction on how many you can buy, only that dealers have to report multiple purchases seperately.
But if you are buying with the intent of future resale (as you have stated), you are admitting to dealing in firearms. And without the FFL (and state?) licenses, you are technically committing a crime. One that can land you in prison, heavily fined, and with the forfiture of your right to ever own a gun again.
I would recommend against it.
You can (legally) buy the entire collection for your own personal use.
If, at some point in the future you decide to sell off all or part of your collection, this is allowed. People who make a regular habit of this sometimes wind up explaining to the Feds why they are "engaging in the business" without an FFL. Occasional sales usually don't raise any flags.
One of the key factors is intent. If the Govt feels you intend to deal without a license, they will come after you. The idea of you buying the collection, and having your FFL holder sell them for you skirts the issue. You may be technically within the bounds of the law, or they may decide your actions show intent to avoid "dealing without an FFL". I have no way to tell which side of the issue the Feds would come down on, so I would avoid any actions that might be interpreted as illegal.
My advice, buy the guns. Keep them. Shoot them. Enjoy owning them. When you get tired of them, sell or trade them. But do not ever tell anyone you bought them with the intent of resale. You don't really intend to deal in firearms without a license, do you? If you don't, you shouldn't tell people you are going to. Which is what you did in your post.
You showed good foresight in posting to ask the question, I hope you continue to show good judgement in this matter. Hope this helps.
If you are buying guns for the purpose of resale, you ARE DEALING in firearms.
If you do not have an FFL, you could be subject to criminal prosecution! The BATF(E) kind of makes it's own rules on how many gun transactions (in a year) make a "dealer". At one time the magic number was 10. I'm sure it is something else today. Tomorrow it may be yet another number.
People selling all or part of their personal collection are not usually bothered. Even if it is a fairly large number of guns. Other than in "one gun a month" states, there is no restriction on how many you can buy, only that dealers have to report multiple purchases seperately.
But if you are buying with the intent of future resale (as you have stated), you are admitting to dealing in firearms. And without the FFL (and state?) licenses, you are technically committing a crime. One that can land you in prison, heavily fined, and with the forfiture of your right to ever own a gun again.
I would recommend against it.
You can (legally) buy the entire collection for your own personal use.
If, at some point in the future you decide to sell off all or part of your collection, this is allowed. People who make a regular habit of this sometimes wind up explaining to the Feds why they are "engaging in the business" without an FFL. Occasional sales usually don't raise any flags.
One of the key factors is intent. If the Govt feels you intend to deal without a license, they will come after you. The idea of you buying the collection, and having your FFL holder sell them for you skirts the issue. You may be technically within the bounds of the law, or they may decide your actions show intent to avoid "dealing without an FFL". I have no way to tell which side of the issue the Feds would come down on, so I would avoid any actions that might be interpreted as illegal.
My advice, buy the guns. Keep them. Shoot them. Enjoy owning them. When you get tired of them, sell or trade them. But do not ever tell anyone you bought them with the intent of resale. You don't really intend to deal in firearms without a license, do you? If you don't, you shouldn't tell people you are going to. Which is what you did in your post.
You showed good foresight in posting to ask the question, I hope you continue to show good judgement in this matter. Hope this helps.
Very good information, I've wondered about this too.
As to when you become a dealer in firearms. As for using the local FFL, that seems that would solve the problem regardless of whether the gov. thinks you are a 'dealer' or not. the local FFL would be the legal agent and the needed paperwork and hoops are being jumped through.
As to when you become a dealer in firearms. As for using the local FFL, that seems that would solve the problem regardless of whether the gov. thinks you are a 'dealer' or not. the local FFL would be the legal agent and the needed paperwork and hoops are being jumped through.
Vic, read what 44 Amp wrote. Got it? Read it again...slowly.
To give everyone an idea about how serious the BATFE takes this issue...
Blume, you just admitted to conspiring to commit a federal felony. You didn't really mean that, did you?
Supposedly well meaning statements, can be construed as intent to conspire to commit a crime. The BATFE often their get convictions for just that kind of thing. And don't think for a moment that everyone who drops in to read this (or any other gun) board has good intentions. Do you really think you are safe, just because you (think you) have posted anonymously?
I don't think I'm being being overly paranoid, however, this thread is closed as it borders too close on illegal activity.
To give everyone an idea about how serious the BATFE takes this issue...
Regardless? Hardly. It is exactly what they think that matters.Blume357 said:
Blume, you just admitted to conspiring to commit a federal felony. You didn't really mean that, did you?
Supposedly well meaning statements, can be construed as intent to conspire to commit a crime. The BATFE often their get convictions for just that kind of thing. And don't think for a moment that everyone who drops in to read this (or any other gun) board has good intentions. Do you really think you are safe, just because you (think you) have posted anonymously?
I don't think I'm being being overly paranoid, however, this thread is closed as it borders too close on illegal activity.
Gramps; interstate sales of firearms, regardless of whether they are pistols or long guns is illegal between two non-FFLs. An FFL, however, can sell a long gun (not a pistol) to a resident of another state if the sale complies withthe state law of both states.
I'd like to thank Antipitas for reopening this one - I think this subject could use a little discussion and fleshing out. I probably speak for quite a few gun owners when I say I 've occasionally seen a good deal on a gun or a small collection of guns and thought about buying it and selling all or part of it off. We all want to stay within the law, so lets try to keep the discussion in that direction.
The statute that requires one to have an FFL to deal in firearms is 18 USC 922(a)(1)(A) which states:
So the question thus becomes what does it mean to "engage in the business" as it pertains to a dealer or one who deals in firearms. This term is defined in 18 USC 921(a)(21)(C)
The key here, at least as I read it, is whether one buys and sells guns repetitively to the point that buying and selling guns can be considered a regular course of trade or business for them. Intent to make a profit is certainly an issue, but it is the combined action of buying and selling over and over for profit that creates a problem. As I see it, buying a collection, as a one time deal and selling everything may be quite acceptable if you don't buy a gun collection to resell for profit regularly or even occasionally. Similarly, if you buy a collection and keep one or more pices for your own, you may also be ok even if you do that repetively as your primary intent would not necessarily be to make a profit so much as enhance your own personal collection with the guns you kept.
FWIW, I've not seen any caselaw on point here, so this is somewhat of a grey area. As far as I'm concerned the issue is open to debate and interpretation and no one should construe the foregoing as legal advice.
I'd like to thank Antipitas for reopening this one - I think this subject could use a little discussion and fleshing out. I probably speak for quite a few gun owners when I say I 've occasionally seen a good deal on a gun or a small collection of guns and thought about buying it and selling all or part of it off. We all want to stay within the law, so lets try to keep the discussion in that direction.
The statute that requires one to have an FFL to deal in firearms is 18 USC 922(a)(1)(A) which states:
It shall be unlawful—
(1) for any person—
(A) except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or in the course of such business to ship, transport, or receive any firearm in interstate or foreign commerce
(1) for any person—
(A) except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or in the course of such business to ship, transport, or receive any firearm in interstate or foreign commerce
So the question thus becomes what does it mean to "engage in the business" as it pertains to a dealer or one who deals in firearms. This term is defined in 18 USC 921(a)(21)(C)
(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms
The key here, at least as I read it, is whether one buys and sells guns repetitively to the point that buying and selling guns can be considered a regular course of trade or business for them. Intent to make a profit is certainly an issue, but it is the combined action of buying and selling over and over for profit that creates a problem. As I see it, buying a collection, as a one time deal and selling everything may be quite acceptable if you don't buy a gun collection to resell for profit regularly or even occasionally. Similarly, if you buy a collection and keep one or more pices for your own, you may also be ok even if you do that repetively as your primary intent would not necessarily be to make a profit so much as enhance your own personal collection with the guns you kept.
FWIW, I've not seen any caselaw on point here, so this is somewhat of a grey area. As far as I'm concerned the issue is open to debate and interpretation and no one should construe the foregoing as legal advice.
Gramps, you are wrong. You may have read the prior posts, but clearly you didn't understand them. The question we were originally dealing with here (at least until you hijacked the thread) was the point at which one may become criminally liable for making a profit or business out of dealing guns without a license under 18 USC 922(a)(1)(A). If you understood the above, you would know that the interstate sale between two non-FFLs was a different matter than what we were originally dealing with in this thread (ie. engaging in a business of selling firearms for profit). If you wanted the proper cite to back up my statement on the second matter, all you had to do was ask. Here 'ya go: 18 USC 922(a)(3) and (5)
18 USC 922(a)It shall be unlawful—
(3)for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides
Got it now?
18 USC 922(a)It shall be unlawful—
(3)for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides
Got it now?
Gramps, read the statutes (18 USC 922(3), (5)) again. This is not about commercial law or the law that only applies to manufacturers or dealers. It applies to anyone in any state; "it shall be unlawful... for any person". Properly licensed manufacturers and dealers are exempt from this section. You also seem to have a problem withthe application of federal law on matters that seem wholly intrastate, however, the commerce clause has been well litigated and can now be a basis for federal legislation of both commercial and non-commercial participants not only in interstate matters but in completely intrastate matters. Perhaps you should read some cases on the commerce clause; Wickard, Raich, Lopez, etc.
For what it's worth, no I was not 'inspiring' the guy to
commit a felony or break any law. I was saying that if the guy used a local FFL then it seemed to me he was 'clear' no matter how many guns he buys or sells. I still feel this is legal and ethical. The FFL is the dealer and I don't think anyone is trying to get around anything. How many folks probably work at the gun shop 'under' the FFL license? I look at it that way... Again, I by no means ment for the person to break the law.... If I can buy and sell as many guns as possible, no limit, through my local FFl (in S.C.) then where's the difference?
commit a felony or break any law. I was saying that if the guy used a local FFL then it seemed to me he was 'clear' no matter how many guns he buys or sells. I still feel this is legal and ethical. The FFL is the dealer and I don't think anyone is trying to get around anything. How many folks probably work at the gun shop 'under' the FFL license? I look at it that way... Again, I by no means ment for the person to break the law.... If I can buy and sell as many guns as possible, no limit, through my local FFl (in S.C.) then where's the difference?
Gramps: The auto analogy is patently false. I can go to another state and buy a new car from a dealer. I can't go to another state and buy a handgun from an FFL. Firearms' regulations are unique; not related to interstate commerce of any other products.
No one has said that you can't take your handgun into another state, assuming that the state in question doesn't preclude such possession. When you get to that state, however, you can't sell the handgun to ANYONE without using an FFL for the transfer.
No one has said that you can't take your handgun into another state, assuming that the state in question doesn't preclude such possession. When you get to that state, however, you can't sell the handgun to ANYONE without using an FFL for the transfer.
So hard to tell sometimes
Just what is legal and what isn't. Gun laws can and do change. Seldom for the better from our point of view, but sometimes it happens. The GCA 68 was amended by the FOPA in 86, removing some of the restrictions. But we also lost on that one because of the amendment ending future machinegun registration. Greatest good for the greatest number, but lots of people are still upset at what we lost to get some good elsewhere.
You legal beagles out there correct me if I get it wrong, but as I understand it, currently,
Sale of handgun between residents of different states must go FFL to FFL.
Sale of handgun (by FFL) to out of state resident must go to FFL in purchaser's state.
Sale of hangun to out of state resident, private, face to face, not permitted.
Sale of long gun to out of state resident, private, face to face, not permitted.
Sale of long gun by FFL to out of state resident permitted face to face, if purchaser is resident of contigous (bordering) state. Otherwise, must go FFL to FFL
and, (not completely sure about this one) sale of a firearm by out of state resident can only go to FFL.
As to the original question, how many times does it take for BATFE to decide you are "dealing"? How many licks does it take to get to the center of a ...well, never mind.
Our man here has 15 guns he would like to buy and sell. Buy them all at once, fine. Sell them all at once, maybe not fine. Sell them one at a time, maybe fine, possibly not. All up to the Feds. If they think they can make a case, they will. It is all in how it is interpreted. Sell 15 guns once, you could be a collector selling part of his collection once, or you could by illegally dealing in firearms 15 times! One count for each gun.
I can't say how the Feds might look at it, so why risk it. Key things to consider are buying with the intent of resale (profit), and number of times you do it.
The reason the number is important is that determination is not set in law, it is governed by BATFE rules. Which do change.
At one time the Feds went after custom rifle builders, guys who made everything from scratch. They wanted them to pay the same license fees as Colt, Remington, Winchester, etc. A huge amount for a small business. Feds claimed making (and selling) more than 10 rifles in a year made you a manufacturer, the same as the big boys. I can no longer remember how this mess worked out, but I do clearly remember they shut guys down, even siezed their assets and took them to court.
They had a similar outlook on dealing at one time. Selling a few guns a couple of times a year without an FFL was enough for some people to get charged, ruining a few lives and bankrupting others. They have done it, they can still do it. Whether or not they do it to you depends on their judgement. Don't risk it.
Buying the guns for your self, keeping them long enough for a reasonable person to believe they were not bought for the purpose of resale would seem to be the best course.
How long is that? I don't have any idea. A year and a day? 6 months? one month? I can't say. One weekend, take it out and shoot it, and decide you don't like it, so you sell it. Reasonable to me, but to the BATFE? Only they can say.
If you ask them, and get an answer, get it in writing, on official letterhead, with the answering agent's name and position clearly ledgible. Don't settle for a phone call, or an e-mail. You might wind up having to produce it in court.
I hate to be a killjoy
and this is a worst case situation, but it is better not to get in a questionable position in the first place than to have to defend your actions in court.
My advice still stands, if the guns are at great prices, and you can afford them, buy them. You can get your money out of them later if you want, without real legal risk, as long as they aren't bought for resale, and you don't make a habit of it.
Good luck.
Just what is legal and what isn't. Gun laws can and do change. Seldom for the better from our point of view, but sometimes it happens. The GCA 68 was amended by the FOPA in 86, removing some of the restrictions. But we also lost on that one because of the amendment ending future machinegun registration. Greatest good for the greatest number, but lots of people are still upset at what we lost to get some good elsewhere.
You legal beagles out there correct me if I get it wrong, but as I understand it, currently,
Sale of handgun between residents of different states must go FFL to FFL.
Sale of handgun (by FFL) to out of state resident must go to FFL in purchaser's state.
Sale of hangun to out of state resident, private, face to face, not permitted.
Sale of long gun to out of state resident, private, face to face, not permitted.
Sale of long gun by FFL to out of state resident permitted face to face, if purchaser is resident of contigous (bordering) state. Otherwise, must go FFL to FFL
and, (not completely sure about this one) sale of a firearm by out of state resident can only go to FFL.
As to the original question, how many times does it take for BATFE to decide you are "dealing"? How many licks does it take to get to the center of a ...well, never mind.
Our man here has 15 guns he would like to buy and sell. Buy them all at once, fine. Sell them all at once, maybe not fine. Sell them one at a time, maybe fine, possibly not. All up to the Feds. If they think they can make a case, they will. It is all in how it is interpreted. Sell 15 guns once, you could be a collector selling part of his collection once, or you could by illegally dealing in firearms 15 times! One count for each gun.
I can't say how the Feds might look at it, so why risk it. Key things to consider are buying with the intent of resale (profit), and number of times you do it.
The reason the number is important is that determination is not set in law, it is governed by BATFE rules. Which do change.
At one time the Feds went after custom rifle builders, guys who made everything from scratch. They wanted them to pay the same license fees as Colt, Remington, Winchester, etc. A huge amount for a small business. Feds claimed making (and selling) more than 10 rifles in a year made you a manufacturer, the same as the big boys. I can no longer remember how this mess worked out, but I do clearly remember they shut guys down, even siezed their assets and took them to court.
They had a similar outlook on dealing at one time. Selling a few guns a couple of times a year without an FFL was enough for some people to get charged, ruining a few lives and bankrupting others. They have done it, they can still do it. Whether or not they do it to you depends on their judgement. Don't risk it.
Buying the guns for your self, keeping them long enough for a reasonable person to believe they were not bought for the purpose of resale would seem to be the best course.
How long is that? I don't have any idea. A year and a day? 6 months? one month? I can't say. One weekend, take it out and shoot it, and decide you don't like it, so you sell it. Reasonable to me, but to the BATFE? Only they can say.
If you ask them, and get an answer, get it in writing, on official letterhead, with the answering agent's name and position clearly ledgible. Don't settle for a phone call, or an e-mail. You might wind up having to produce it in court.
I hate to be a killjoy
and this is a worst case situation, but it is better not to get in a questionable position in the first place than to have to defend your actions in court.My advice still stands, if the guns are at great prices, and you can afford them, buy them. You can get your money out of them later if you want, without real legal risk, as long as they aren't bought for resale, and you don't make a habit of it.
Good luck.