Quality Round 'tween .300ish and .50 caliber?

M

MashieNiblick

Moderator
Hello,

i currently have, in practicality, 0 to no experience with rifles or knowledge of quality rifle calibers, so please excuse my ignorance in advance. in fact i unfortunately have not read a single thread in The Art of the Rifle Forum.

this said, and out of curiosity if you don't mind, what NATO or standard round is considered by those in the know as quality for an ~.400 to ~.450ish rifle?

something with a bullet of decent weight, a bottle necked cartridge, adequate velocities, good wind handling capabilities, and good ballistic performance performance?

i came across the 8mmX57 Mauser which looked good, but was more interested in something in a common NATO or American rifle caliber. the round listings from the online site i purchase my handgun ammunition is quite extensive, with considerable upload times, and small pictures, so this may be a good way to shortcut my research.

Thank you for your time in advance,
- MN
 
Your terminology is not standard, but deciphering the best I can, you would be well served by a .308 Winchester (commercial version of 7.62 NATO) in a name brand rifle from Remington, Winchester, Savage, Tikka, CZ, and probably half a dozen other brands.

If I am wrong, and you want a monster magnum, the usual suspect is the .338 Lapua. Even more overkill with higher prices and more recoil would be available with .408 Chey-Tac, .416 Barrett, and full size .50 BMG.
 
Thank you for your replies.

am i correct in assuming that with the advent of modern soft and hollow point bullet technologies a .308 round would be sufficient for an elk or elk sized animal and .50 would typically be used for moose, bison, bears, or similar?

there are not much, or many North American sized wildlife found between these, correct?

Thank you again, and once again please excuse my ignorance,

- MN
 
it depends on what .50 round you are talking about .50 beowulf, then yeah that could be used for that kinda game but i think a .50 bmg would be overkill and the weight isnt something i would want to carry for hunting.
 
A .30-06 will kill every animal on the North American continent with good shot placement including grizzleys. (Probably would bring a .375 H&H for piece of mind with something that could eat me)

There would be a watermelon sized hole in anything you shot with a .50 BMG! :eek:
 
.308 w/ proper bullets is suitable for elk no problems. What is it that you are looking to do, hunt?(what animals?what distance?what terrain?) Target shoot? whats important to you? ammunition price ect?

As a quick and dirty guide calibers go something like this(but there are many exceptions)

.17 varmint/target
.22 rimfire -animals up to racoon size/target
.223 longer distance varmint/coyote/small deer/target
.25 calibers, typically for medium deer size, at a greater distance
.270 standard deer cartridge, if you can hit it, it will kill it out to 400+yards,also good for black bears, elk w/ correct bullets ect
.30 calibers(.308,30-30,30-06,.300winmag ect) are good for deer/elk/moose/black bears-the 30-30 just has limited distance compared to the others/target (typically target out of those would be the .308, and at long distance the .300 winmag)
.35 calibers-shortish range for the above stated animals/not typically target
.338-very long range of the above stated animals/targets
.375-african safari rifle/not typically target
.40 caliber- typically we are talking 'african safari rifles here/not typically target
.45 caliber-see .35 caliber-shortish range large game hunting/long range traditional target (look up sharps rifles)
.50 caliber-famous .50BMG which is either a machine gun round or a sniper rifle round, it is not used for hunting. .50 caliber handgun ammo, typically used for large bear defense or big game handgun hunting.

This is a VERY rough guide, but should get you a little more familiar w/ what you are dealing with.

Pretty much a .270/.308/30-06 will take care of all north american animals. The exceptions are Polar bears/grizzly/brown/kodiak bears. (Which for safety you would want a larger round, but could most certainly be killed w/ the above mentioned rounds)
 
Buy a nice used .22lr and start practicing. Get some instruction and try informal competition.

If you do intend to hunt, take a hunters safety class. Then, with proper licensing for your state, go shoot some small game with the .22.

After that start worrying about elk hunting.
 
Gotta learn to walk before you learn to run.

First, get a really good rimfire and learn and perfect your technique with small bores (22LR, 22WMR, 17HMR, etc).

Then graduate to something a bit larger, say 223 or a 30 caliber. Master that.

Then move up to harder kicking 30 caliber rifles, like a 300WSM, 300 Win Mag, or some such.

Then a larger bore like 338 Win Mag, 375 H&H, 416 Rigby or Remington.

Once you have mastered shooting large-bore rifles, start looking at the romper-stompers like the 338 Lapua, 338 Rum, 340 Weatherby, 375 Rum, 406 CheyTac, or whatever.

But please, for your own enjoyment and control, don't start off with a $4000 long-range rifle topped by a $4000 scope shooting $10/round ammo. It doesn't matter how flat it shoots "way out there" if you can't hit anything up close and personal.

As far as your grasp of bullet energy and appropriate targets, let's jsut say it is misguided.
 
I'll second the .22lr idea, cheap to shoot and won't induce the flinching that a big game rifle is capable of inducing. But if you want to hunt larger game, 30-06 has been killing big critters for over 100 years and will continue to do so for well over another 100. 7mm Rem Mag would be a good choice for just about any game on this continent as would just about any .30 or .33 caliber magnum. 30-06 is probably the best choice unless you're going to pursue the big bears. Conventional wisdom is that Hollow points are not recommended for hunting. Hollow point rifle bullets are used on varmints or for target use. You'll want a bullet that will expand and retain as much of it's weight as possible while providing adequate penetration. Soft point bullets work well on deer sized game, larger game I would probably switch to a Barnes copper solid bullet. Bonded bullets and partition style bullets have excellent reputations for dropping game.

Stu
 
The 50bmg was never intended for hunting purposes, its main use is against armored targets like jeeps, trucks and APCs for the millitary, it was never even intended for anti personal use, which it is a bit these days.

There is no practical hunting purpose for a 50bmg apart from making animals explode.

But to awnser your question there was a big surge of .400ish calibers in the last 10 or so years, the main competitors being the .416 barrett and .408 cheytac, both these rounds are superior to the 50bmg as anti personal rounds, but I think its more to do with better bullet designs.
But amazing as these to cartridges are the didn't seem to catch on that well and have really died back, I don't know of any military that uses either of them.

But a round that has surged forward recently is the 338 lapua.
Most major countries have adopted a rifle that fires these round for there use in long range people shooting, the anti armor is still done by 50bmg.
The previous longest confirmed kill was a Canadian sniper who shot a Taliban soldier at around 2300 meters with a McMillian Tac 50 firing 50bmg.
But last year I think a British sniper shot two Taliban machine gunners at over 2400 meters with an Accuracy International AWSM in 338 lapua.

Oh and while i'm at it, 8x57 isn't all that much bigger and better than 308 and its almost on par with 30-06. Its not anywhere near the other rounds i've mentioned.
 
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For shooting dangerous game like you've mentioned a whole lost of different calibers are used, too many for me to be bothered listing.
Realistically you could shoot anything in America with either a 30-06 or a 300win mag, although a lot of .338 cal rounds are used.
Shot placement is a major factor in a clean kill though.

If you are thinking of hunting or shooting, start off with a 22lr, learn the basics of shooting, just shooting small varmint. Then i'd say move up to a 243 or 7mm08 or 308 and that'l set you right for everything up to moose or elk.
Once your ready to shoot big animals you can start thinking about a different round then.
 
Generally, in order to take deer-sized game, one needs about 1000 ft. lbs of energy at the target (not at the muzzle).

to take large elk, bison, and/or bear sized game, one would want a little more energy than that, say 1500 to 2000 ft. lbs.

the .50 BMG has a muzzle energy of 13,000 ft. lbs for a 700 grain projectile moving at ~2900 fps.

That is overkill. Even for a rhinoceros. keep in mind, the .50 BMG was designed to penetrate armored vehicles and disable them. It is officially deemed an "anti-material" round, not an anti-personnel round.

Plus, the .50 BMG is going to cost you $2.00/round for loaded ammunition, and I have yet to find a rifle chambered in .50 BMG for less that $2000.

If you are looking for a cartridge to hunt with, look elsewhere.

NATO does not officially use any .400-.450 ish rounds. Specially trained american snipers will sometimes use rounds such as the .408 Chey Tac or the .416 Barrett. But these are very specialized rounds; one would be hard-pressed to find hunting bullets in these cartridges like soft points.

If you are looking for a round that can kill any animal in north america, and is a standard NATO round, you would want .308 (its NATO name is 7.62x51).

If you want a "standard" round in the .400-.450 ish range that is fairly common and has a good amount of power, you will want the .45-70 government. if you want something to shoot long range with without breaking the bank, then you will probably have to step down the caliber a little bit and look in the .250-.350 range. the .308 is used by american snipers out to 1000 meters.

but, the problem i am having answering your question is that i am not sure what your question is. what are you looking to do with said round? it will be easier to tell you what you need if you tell us what you need.
 
You should get a .22 first. Either the 308 or the 45/70 Government will do everything you ask of it. Either will kill any game animal in North America.
 
Thank you for all of your replies.

I was just curious as there seemed to me to be a gap in common calibers when looking through hunting magazines, catalogues, etc. This obviously is not the case if one looks closely enough.

I agree with the suggestion of the .22lr if i desire to begin rifle training, shooting, or hunting, and have been thinking the same thing or along the same lines.

If i ever do this, i have been looking a lot at the Rossi Wizard. It is a single shot rifle and has nice barrel changing capabilities.

I was thinking of scopeless- .17 and .22 for squirrels or rabbits, .223 for deer, javalina, etc., and .410gauge for small birds.

One really shouldn't require a rifle followup shot for anything other than birds, especially one with limited experience, correct?

If i ever get the chance to go for something like an elk i was thinking Mosin Nagent 91/30 w/ 7.62mmX54 @ ~$150.


Thank you again for your assistance,
- Mashie :)
 
If i ever get the chance to go for something like an elk i was thinking Mosin Nagent 91/30 w/ 7.62mmX54 @ ~$150.
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If you ever get an elk tag (rare in most states or pricey if buying commercial tags) you might want to invest a bit more than $150 for an iron sight surplus rifle. But for $400 you can probably get a cheap Vanguard combo in 30-06 that would be sufficient.
 
What do you plan to use the rifle for? Usually, any rifle over 40 cal is a real thumper and complete overkill for anything in NA. They make lever guns in 44 mag that look like they'd be fun to play with. But if you're looking for an all around game rifle just get a 308 or 30-06.
 
Other posters are addressing the other issues quite well, so I'll simply offer a suggestion that falls into your original criteria:
.416 Rigby.
It'll beat you up.
It has great ballistics (for the size and weight of the projectiles).
I'll work for anything you want ... in the world.

I have hunted squirrels with one. ;)

But - The rifles are not cheap, and factory ammunition is generally $2-5 per cartridge.
(The .416 Rigby is absolutely NOT a "starter" rifle.)
 
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Can anyone provide a reliable source for either of these statements:

The 50bmg ... it was never even intended for anti personal use,
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It is officially deemed an "anti-material" round, not an anti-personnel round.
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I say MYTH

Why would they make "Cartridge, Caliber .50, Ball, M2" ammo, which is anti-personnel, for it?
 
mapsjanhere,

i'll do you one better.

if i can ever afford an Elk tag, i'll take and track it (or try. . . .) with above mentioned rifle, with immediate handgun followup if necessary- 9mm, fmj- for rifle and handgun, firing from the far side of either a camel, horse, pony, or burro- whatever is available (and the cheapest. . . .).

if i'm not able to take a shot, or i'm unable to track successfully post shot- i'll consider it money, time, and experience well spent, perhaps a good meal for the scavengers, and look forward to the next potential season or chance in a later season. . . .

speaking from anticipated personal experience, i'd rather go from a small high vel. fmj round to the heart or vitals than an expanding meat devourer.

ethical like fishing by circling a school with a large net rather than overweight test and bloody meat for bait followed by a bad struggle.

- MN
:cool:
 
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