purpose of the rifle

S

STEVE M

New member
What do we want our general purpose rifle to do? Cooper came up with the scout rifle concept after defining the objective. In his case it is mostly a hunting rifle of medium power for medium ranges. I don't want to start a flame war about what is best but I am curious what your guide lines are for a general purpose rifle? (Let's figure out the problem first, then the solution)

[This message has been edited by STEVE M (edited March 24, 2000).]
 
I think of the general purpose weapon as a rifle suitable for both big game hunting and war.
Cooper's concept is very good. It is a very light rifle that attempts to incorporate the technological advances available the end of the 20th century. The Steyr Scout is not the only possible scout, but an example of it made by Steyer on their action. The real scout concept is a list of criteria that Cooper and fellows made up. I have read them, but, right now, forget where these criteria are located.
The only strong contender for the position is the classic sporting rifle as developed by the Mauser Werks, English builders like John Rigby and American gun makers like Griffin & Howe in calibers rangeing from 7mm Mauser to 30/06. These weigh between 7 1/2 and 8 1/2 ibs and are fitted with both scope and iron sights. The very best of these handle like a dream. I am not sure that this isn't the very best that there is or ever will be and that the better gunmakers had not actually solved this whole problem of the all around rifle by about 1935 at the latest.

[This message has been edited by Herodotus (edited March 24, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Herodotus (edited March 25, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The real scout concept is a list of critera that Cooper and fellows made up. I have read them, but, right now, forget where these critera are located.[/quote]

Taken from the The Steyr Mannlicher Scout Rifle Site


By the definition of the Scout Rifle Conferences held under the auspices of Jeff Cooper the scout rifle has been defined as a general purpose rifle suitable for taking targets of up to 400 kg (880 pounds) at ranges to the limit of the shooters visibility (nominally 300 meters) that meets the following criteria:

Weight-sighted and slung: 3 kilograms (6.6 lb). This has been set as the ideal weight but the maximum has been stated as being 3.5 kg (7.7 pounds ).
Length: 1 meter (39 inches)
Barrel length: .48 meter (19 inches)
Sighting system: Forward mounted (ahead of the action opening) long eye relief telescope of between 2x and 3x. Reserve iron sights desirable but not necessary.
Action: Magazine fed bolt action. Detachable box magazine or stripper clip charging is desirable but not necessary.
Sling: Fast loop-up type, i.e. Ching or CW style.
Caliber: Nominally .308 Winchester (7.62 x 51 mm) or 7 mm - 08 Winchester (7 x 51 mm), with .243 Winchester (6 x 51 mm) being considered for frail individuals or where "military" calibers are proscribed.
Built-in bipod: Desirable but not mandatory.
Accuracy: Should be capable of shooting into 2 minutes of angle or less at 200 yards/meters (3 shot groups).


------------------
Schmit
GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"

[This message has been edited by Schmit (edited March 25, 2000).]
 
I think there is merit in the Scout concept, but one of Cooper's ideas was in a wartime situation. Now I think the Steyr Scout is a butt-ugly piece of work esthetically, but it sure feels good when I hold it. I guess for general hunting of up to elk size animals, it would be good. But the war concept is not answered, in my opinion. I'm not flaming the Steyr Scout, but I feel it is lacking on one point. Controlled feed. I feel that any rifle meant to beused in a combat situation, even if it is in the scout concept of "hit and run", should have controlled feed. Probably the best example of this would be a Mauser action, barreled to .308 Win./7.62 Nato. The mauser was designed to be as "foolproof" as a rifle could be under the worst of circumstances. WAR! Should a scout rifle be any less?
BTW. I am in the process of aquireing the components to build up what I think a scout should be. A coincidence is the action is a 1912-61 Steyr Mauser. :) I have a super lightweight rifle in .308, with a lawson Cochise thumbhole stock now, also built on a Steyr 1912-61 Mauser that with scope, sling, fully loaded, weighs exactly 5 pounds. So the weight restrictions can bemet. The barrel is only 19 inches, and it is a 1 to 1.5 inch grouper, depending on the loads.
The bolt handle will be left straight, Ashley sights, scout scope of course, and Mauser stripper clips will work for reloading. I'll probably parkerize it, or maybe a teflon finish, still contemplating the pros and cons on that one.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Paul B.
 
It seems to me that within Herodotus' concept, the only "new" thing about the Scout rifle is the forward position of the scope mount. All the other features have been around for decades, although not necessarily all in the same rifle.

As far as "war", all I can say is that Charles Whitman had several one-shot kills; one at 420 of my long steps, with a 6mm Remington.

Drifting toward war as a higher priority, I rather like, say, a so-called "Tanker" Garand in .308 with a box magazine. I think field maintenance is easier than for, e.g., an HK 91-style critter.

Just some thoughts, Art
 
Art:
That's right, there really isn't anything new in the scout concept, its the total package that is unique. The German's even had a forward mounted scope in the WWII era (to clear their Mausers for use with scope and stripper clips ??) and the 3 piece sling was inspired by an old British military design.
The Steyer Scout is a tour de force of Steyer gunmaking skills within the scout concept perameters. Jeff Cooper actively advised them on this project. I think it has paid off for them, at least in prestige.
I am grateful to Schmit for posting the real criteria. Note that the ideal scout would be about 6.5 lbs with scope & sling. The classic rifles that I noted as the alternate contenders for all around rifle would all be a pound and more heavier fully fitted.
Personally, I am glad they made the bipod optional, although the Steyer Scout's integral bipod is clever.
I too would prefer a controled round scout with stripper clip capacity, like Paul B.
 
Why is controlled round feed important when no modern semiauto or full auto battle or assault rifle uses it? Obviously military selection boards don't find it necessary or desirable any more.

No one is going to argue an AK-47 is unreliable because it doesn't feature a controlled round feed.
 
AC, I guess it's an issue of whether or not a "floating" cartridge might not feed properly into the chamber; or the round could even fall from the rifle if one is moving rapidly in rough country.

In a purely hunting situation, I don't see it as a matter of importance.

FWIW, Art
 
Controlled round feed insures that it doesn't misfeed or jamb in combat when it really counts, even when the rifle is filthy with mud. Pual Mauser was fully aware of the push feed principle, used it on his Model 1889's &1891's and rejected it as inferior when he found something better. The modern military considers an automatic rifle more important, and they are undoubtedly correct.
 
Now if we could just get a true Scout under $1500 :)

THEN we would be getting somewhere.

I also think someone needs to forward mount a scope on a bolt-action .22 to promote the sighting system to new shooters.
 
Hi, AC and Art,

No one cared much about controlled feed until metal jacketed, pointed bullets came along.

In spite of the baloney that has been written, the real purpose of controlled feed is to prevent leaving a live round in the chamber and then trying to load another from the magazine. This could happen in the heat of battle, and if the bullet point drives into the primer of the round in the chamber, unpleasant things happen rather rapidly.

Jim
 
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