Pros and cons of all-copper projectiles

E

ezmiraldo

New member
Hi folks. I'm particularly interested in your thoughts on pros and cons (in terms of external and terminal ballistics) of copper bullets for:

1. Short- and medium-range hunting (100-500 meters) using rifles.

2. Long-range target practice (600-1000 meters) using rifles.

3. Use in self-defense pistol cartridges (9mm, 40 cal, 45 acp, etc.) using JHP in semi-auto pistols.

Let's hear it!
 
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Tried them and don't like them.

You may find it difficult to get a truly solid copper pistol bullet due to ATF regs.

Solids in pistols are viewed as "Armor Piercing", at least for body armor. I believe the rule restricts the ration of jacket material to core and since a solid copper bullet is essentially "all jacket material" I believe they're a no-no.

In rifles they're freaking expensive and I've yet to see the "superior" performance that's claimed. They may be required in some areas where "lead free" is the rule for hunting but there are better alternatives. Bullets that are traditional in design with lead free core material.

Just my opinion which often varies widely from others:cool:
 
The only experience I've had with solid copper was the old Barnes X solid copper hollow points that I used to shoot in my muzzleloader and they were death on a whitetail. Hands down the best performing bullet I've ever used. Perfect expansion and 100% weight retention every time.
 
Copper is what, about three times as expensive as lead.

Lead is heavier-denser than copper.

Lead expanse better than copper. Expansion for particularly hunting and self-defense is generally desirable over penetration.

Copper penetrates better than lead. For instance, EFPs (Explosive formed penetrators) do a heck of a job at punching through thick armor plate because it's heavy, forms, and penetrates. Lead, however, is softer and mushrooms.

So, in summary, lead is 1/3rd the cost and a better material for the generally intended civilian purposes of hunting and self defense.
 
the solid copper bullets from barnes for example, they dont shed weight period. a sample they show in the catalog is a 225 grain copper hollowpoint fired from a 7.5 inch ruger into a black bear. it only lost 2 grains of weight.

the 140 grain 357 load, well it doesnt loose weight at all. look it on youtube. it goes about 29 inches in gelatin blocks from a 3 inch barrel.
 
leadcounsel said:
Lead expanse better than copper. Expansion for particularly hunting and self-defense is generally desirable over penetration.

Copper penetrates better than lead. For instance, EFPs (Explosive formed penetrators) do a heck of a job at punching through thick armor plate because it's heavy, forms, and penetrates. Lead, however, is softer and mushrooms.

So, in summary, lead is 1/3rd the cost and a better material for the generally intended civilian purposes of hunting and self defense.
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Have you seen a Barnes TTSX?

I've never seen a bullet that expands more reliably, penetrates better and retains weight more completely. Not to mention, kills deer like Thor's Hammer.
 
Brian , some are confused by all copper bullets . However our NYS deer respond very well to Barnes all copper from 44mag revolver and 45-70 rifle.Note that I don't hunt paper or other things I can't eat !
I also use them for carry in 9mm and 40S&W.
They are called 'premium' for a reason.
You can make bullets do anything you want, all depends on the design.
All copper has been around long enough to have refined the design for consistant ,excellent performance.
 
Copper, used right is GREAT. Many folks don't understand how to use it, and get un satisfactory results. Copper bullets don't need weight to penetrate. A 100 gr 243 bullet will drive just as deep into an animal as a 200 gr. bullet fired from a 300 magnum, at reasonable ranges. This is because it retains 100% of its weight, or right at it, no matter how fast it impacts. Conventional lead bullets lose 50-80% of their weight as soon as they impact an animal. The 200 gr lead bullet from a 300 mag will weigh less than 100 gr after impact in most cases. About where the 243 bullet started, and ended. The heavier bullets work better at longer ranges. I'll touch on that later.

Copper works best at high impact speeds. Anything under about 2000 fps is not going to expand well and 2200 fps or more works best. The biggest mistake folks make with copper is using the same bullet weights they use with lead. A 130 gr 308 bullet is a heavy copper bullet suitable for deer, elk or bear. A 90-110 gr bullet is probably all you need in a 270. You just can't get the heavier copper bullets moving fast enough to work well unless fired from magnum cartridges.

I'm loading 130's at between 3050 and 3100 fps in my 308. Same speeds as a 180 from a 300 magnum. I'll get equal or better penetration on the same size game. As long as impact speeds are up to 2000 fps I'll get excellent expansion.

Copper probably isn't the best bullet for extreme long range hunting because after speed drops, expansion is poor. But my 130 gr 308 load doesn't drop below 2000 fps until about 450 yards. That is as far as I'll be shooting anything. This is where the heavier lead bullets beat copper. They still expand at longer ranges, and their better BC's maintain energy and speed better at extreme range.

Copper is what, about three times as expensive as lead.
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Copper is more expensive, not 3X more expensive. Just for a little perspective, if you're the type of guy who wants to shoot 100 rounds a week at the range, you can't afford copper. But for a hunter it isn't that bad. The cost difference between 200 Barnes TTSX bullets, and 200 Hornady Interlokts's won't even fill the tank on my truck with gas. 200 bullets will last me at least 4-5 years for load development, practice and hunting. The cost of 3/4 tank of gas every 4-5 years is nothing compared to the other expenses I have to support my hunting and shooting habit. Cheap insurance for a better hunting bullet in my opinion.
 
Conventional lead bullets lose 50-80% of their weight as soon as they impact an animal.
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That's a whole lot higher figure than I've ever read.
Everything I've read says 0 to 20% is fairly normal and extreme cases are 40%.

Also - the price of copper closed Friday at $3.02 a pound and lead closed at $.95 a pound so three times more is accurate.

Other than those two things, I agree a lot w/what you're saying.

However - that's from a hunters perspective.

An "all copper" bullet in handgun calibers - the .45acp in particular - showed a lot of promise about 12/14 years ago.
Then the Chinese went on a tear and started to gobble up all the copper they could lay their hands on.
That pretty much killed any real development.
 
1. Short- and medium-range hunting (100-500 meters) using rifles.

I've shot elk from about 150 yards to 350 yards with the 225 gr. Barnes 35 caliber bullet. Three shots, three very dead elk.
I've been doing load development work with TSX bullets, 100 gr. in a .257 Robt. with mediocre accuracy so far, 120 and 140 gr. TSX in the 7x57 Mauser and .280 Remington with poor results so far. The .35 Whelen on the other hand at 2710 FPS/225 gr. TSX is a .50" to .75" shooter depending on how well I'm doing on any particular day. The .257 Bob is a 1.5" gun so far but I'm think deeper seating might make a difference in groups. THe 7x57 and .280 are just in the beginning stages soonly time will tell on those two.

2. Long-range target practice (600-1000 meters) using rifles.

Probably work OK if you own an oil well. Those bullets are pretty pricey. Whether you consider the expense worth it is something only you can decide. I only shoot monometal bullets at the range for load work up and checking the sights prior to the hunt.

3. Use in self-defense pistol cartridges (9mm, 40 cal, 45 acp, etc.) using JHP in semi-auto pistols.

I haven't a clue. I only shoot home cast bullets in my handguns for practice and factory for self defense. The cast bullet loads are as close to the same factory velocity as I can load and shoot to practically the same point of impact.
Paul B.
 
Interesting... So, the line that Barnes is pushing (i.e., you can use our all-copper light weight bullets, get less recoil, and achieve penetration/expansion comparable to much heavier bullets) has merit...
 
Holy cow! Just saw an article comparing 30 cal projectiles in Rifle Shooter magazine (thank you, taylorce1, for providing a link to it in a different thread). Looks like Barnes' TTSX is the way to go - especially when it comes to excellent penetration coupled with acceptable expansion. This provides solid support to your point, Brian (although, I agree with you that the sample size could've been increased to 3-5 projectiles for each type of bullet in that test)!

It's interesting how there appears to be a relationship between bullet expansion and penetration... Since, I was bored this morning, I used their data and ran correlation analyses on it. Here are results:

- Correlation for penetration and expansion (at 50 yards), r=-.734, p=0.038
- Correlation for penetration and expansion (at 400 yards), r=-.878, p=0.004

Results of the tests basically say that there is a strong negative correlation (as one thing goes up, another goes down) between expansion and penetration. So, it seems one cannot have one's cake and eat it, too when it comes to penetration and expansion - across various bullet types.. Interestingly, the correlation is a bit stronger for 400 yards compared to 50 yards...

Now, this performance is recorded for 300 win mag. How about less powerful cartridges, say 30-06 or .308? Would Barnes TTSX shine similarly in that category, as well?
 
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You may find it difficult to get a truly solid copper pistol bullet due to ATF regs.

Solids in pistols are viewed as "Armor Piercing", at least for body armor. I believe the rule restricts the ration of jacket material to core and since a solid copper bullet is essentially "all jacket material" I believe they're a no-no.
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If that's true, then these guys are in a lot of trouble:

http://www.midwayusa.com/brand/copper-only-projectiles-cop

http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/components/pistol/

http://www.magtechammunition.com/sitepages/pid115.php
 
So far as i know the BATFE has not made an issue of the ratio of bullet jacket material to bullet core. It appears that 100 percent copper bullets in handgun calibers are legal. Handgun caliber bullets made of bronze or brass are illegal.

"Armor piercing ammunition” is defined as “a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.” A second definition, added in the 1990s, includes “a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.”

In August, 2011 Elite Ammo was raided because they sold brass bullets in .223, 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC calibers.

The agent in charge stated that .223, 6.5 Grendel and 6.8SPC were now handgun cartridges. Since our bullets were made of brass they were AP [Armor Piercing] and prohibited. The agent told me I could no longer sell or manufacture these bullets or loaded rounds. They produced an FTB [Firearms Technology Branch] order dated the day before stating the above change in cartridge classification. They would not provide a copy and they would not let me make a copy.
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http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...tion-confiscate-armor-piercing-brass-bullets/
 
I only fall into the first category, although to be honest, I'm not a good enough shot to take a hunting shot over 300 yards. Here are some random thoughts.

1. I switched b/c I found a piece of gliding metal in my deer stew; I don't want that to happen to my kids. I don't think that deer or elk end up any more dead if hit by an all-copper bullet. I expect fewer random pieces of shrapnel in my game if I use solids. They sometimes shed, but shouldn't explode. If the goal of hunting is to bring home healthy food for my family, then the solids seem like a better choice, IF they do the job.

2. I've found that the Federal TSX and TTSX cartriges in the 160 grain range are acceptably accurate in my 30-06. I expect that 160 grains of copper will kill elk as dead as the 160 grains of copper/lead that I have used previously to take elk and deer. I have yet to see an elk or deer while holding that rifle. Final test yet to be passed, but all early hurdles passed.

3. I found that 120 grain GMX bullets were not as accurate as 120 grain TTSX Barnes bullets in my Savage 10. It is chambered in 260 Remington. I blame that on my rifle as I think all rifles prefer some ammo types over others. Someone else here I'm sure has a 6.5 cal rifle that prefers the GMX over the Barnes. Point being: as you're aware already, the bullets themselves aren't ever the only factor to consider.

4. I have only pulled the trigger on them once thusfar while hunting. A 200 yard shot on an average sized doe antelope. I hit the doe at the base of her neck with a 120 gr TTSX. It passed through her torso and out in between her ribs and hip. She died before she hit the ground. The bullet appeared to have stayed together and probably is in a cactus a couple hundred yards behind her.

Cons: they are pricey, but since I only use them for hunting, I don't expect to use many over the rest of my life.
 
i've killed a few dozen wild hogs using the 53 and 55 grain .223 caliber TSX bullets in my .223 rifles. Most were killed at ranges <100 yards. Some of those hogs weighed 250-300 pounds. None got away and only a few needed a second shot.

i recently killed five hogs, one right after the other, with five shots from an AR-15 rifle. One was a Texas heart shot, square in the bum, as he went away. The bullet exited the chest.
 
What do you guys think about copper bullets from perspective of "jacket uniformity"? I know that some lead bullets have the jacket uniformity problems making them less than ideal for long range (especially the non-match-grade bullets). The copper bullet should not be susceptible to this problem, since it has no jacket by definition. So, at least in this specific regard, copper bullet should be outdoing lead bullet in terms of accuracy, right?
 
Referring to the defensive handgun rounds:

In theory at least there's an accuracy advantage. A copper 125gr 357Mag hollowpoint slug will be longer than a 125gr conventional JHP - figure the 125 copper will run about the same length and volume as a 140gr conventional. So you get more bearing surface for the bullet weight with copper - that is, more bullet rubbing on the inside of the barrel. Better gas seal, better stability end-to-end, better accuracy.

The downside is that you have less case volume to work with. So for example, Cor-Bon's 125gr DPX in 357 is doing about 1,250fps - like a very warm +P or +P+ load. BUT it's accurate and it expands well at that speed, and given the reduced recoil it's a great option in a lighter gun like a Ruger LCR357 (17oz), S&W 60 in 357 (about 21oz) or the like, or for the recoil-sensitive folks in larger guns.

Buffalo Bore has attempted to crank up the all-copper hollowpoints in 357 up to "normal" 357 speeds, but they had to abandon flash-suppressed powders to do it.

In a caliber like 9mm or .380 where case capacity is very low, I am skeptical that these are a good idea. For certain applications where you have lots of case capacity (357, 10mm, 44Spl, any of the handgun magnums, 45LC) they have a lot of merit.
 
I have been working loads with various Barnes bullets. I am still testing, but I have found the 225 TTSX yields about the same accuracy in my .338 WM as my favorite 250 SGK with good velocity. I have their 210 TTSX loaded and have high hopes for that one. I am getting very good results with 140 XPB in my 4" GP-100, and this may be my "go to" load. In defensive pistols, I have so far only tested 9 mm 115 TAC-XP. In my full size M&P, the Barnes recommended Power Pistol loads were slow and barely cycled the action. More work to do there. In general, these long copper bullets are more of a challenge for small capacity cases like 9X19; you really have to adjust. I haven't put one through a game animal yet, but the reports, at least with the current design Barnes, are all excellent. Long range target work? Too expensive. The advantage of these bullets is terminal performance.
 
I like the use of copper for pistol hunting when I want penetration with ought freight loss. Deer hunting with my 44 Magnum would be good use for copper. Although I want fragmentation for small varmint and in home defense. I also want copper for Coyote with my hornet.
 
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