Prone position muscles vs. bones

J

jephthai

New member
I've read books, watched some videos on Youtube, and trolled the forums, but can't find answers for my questions about the prone position. I'm struggling with bones vs. muscles for establishing a stable platform. I know I'm doing it wrong, because I'm more stable sitting than prone!

Everywhere I read says to use bones instead of muscles, because muscles tire, pulse, etc. But these same resources say I should have a 30-degree angle between my left forearm and the ground (I'm shooting right-handed). I can't for the life of me figure out how to do that without applying constant pressure with my biceps.

So I found another resource that stressed pulling the butt into the shoulder, as if that assists in alleviating weight on the left arm. I experimented with this tonight in the living room, and can't seem to figure this out either. Seems like pulling the rifle into my shoulder is applying continuous muscular effort, and I can see / feel extra wobble from contracting my right arm.

Note that I am doing this without a sling, at this point. Is the no-muscles advice only relevant when there's a sling? If so, what muscles *do* you use when prone? And where is your left elbow, and what angle do you maintain with your left forearm and the ground?
 
see if you can find a nra hipower clinic in your area....thoose guys know posistions...fwiw, bobn
 
 
First off, you need a sling, either the web sling or a 1907 type leather sling.

Put the sling on the upper left bicep (since you said you are right handed).

Assume a prone position. The right elbow should be directly under the rifle. Tighten the sling so its holding the rifle, not your arm. Put the rifle into your shoulder, keeping your head as straight as possible, AND getting a good Chipmunk check weld.

Now this is where some people disagree, but its the way its taught by the Army Marksmanship Unit, and those boys know shooting. Cock your right leg up. The knee and lower leg should be lined up with the axes of the rifle.

Adjust your windage for a natural point of aim by shifting your butt or lower have left or right. Now, adjust your elevation (for NPA) by sliding your left hand up and down the stock until you find the spot where you have perfect elevation. Now tighten up the sling again. You should relax and the rifle will fall into a perfect natural point of aim.

Grip the pistol grip with your shooting hand, firmly but not too tight. (Too tight and you whole hand will move when you squeeze the trigger). The trigger finger should not touch any part of the rifle but the trigger.

OK you should be all set, now we'll test your position. Get all set, (you should have a NPA) close your eyes, dry fire, open your eyes and see if you are still lined up, if not re-adjust what ever is needed. Repeat. When you think you have it down, repeat a couple more times.

If you notice movement caused by you pulse, put a couple sweatshirts under you coat.

This is it in a nut shell, take into account not all shooters are built the same but thats the basics of prone shooting. You can modify it as long as in doing so you don't loose your NPA.

In my younger years, shooting rapid fire, I use to be able to bring my right knee up to my right elbow keeping it from slipping. Can't do that any more.

This should be a relaxed position and you should be able to get into position and lay there fore a half hour or more without any undo discomfort.

Relaxed is what you are looking for. Relaxation is way too often left out of marksmanship fundamentals.

I think I covered every thing,
 
Addition

Clinics are good, High Power or CMP-GSM

I think it ought to be a law that people HAD to list their location in their profiles. Then we might be able to point out to a CMP GSM Master Instructor or GSM/High Power Clinic in their area.
 
First off, you need a sling, either the web sling or a 1907 type leather sling.
Click to expand...

I was thinking the sling might be necessary. BTW, thanks for replying -- you were one of the forum experts I was hoping to hear from. Unfortunately, Bass Pro doesn't seem to have "functional" slings. I'll have to order it from somewhere...

I think it ought to be a law that people HAD to list their location in their profiles
Click to expand...

No problem sharing -- I'm in Baton Rouge, LA.

JohnKSa -- thanks for those links! I will digest them slowly. Those pages seem to assume use of a sling as well, which I unfortunately do not have. In fact, the rifle I practice most with is an air-rifle (works in the back yard -- for living in the deep south, it sure is hard to find places to shoot), and it doesn't have sling studs. *sigh*

Somehow I got the impression somewhere that prone still can make sense without a sling, but maybe that's not the case. Until I can figure out a sling arrangement, I'm more stable sitting because my forearm doesn't wobble as much since it's at a much steeper angle.
 
OK, from one of the links posted by JohnKSa:

a_USAMU4-8-12.gif


So he doesn't have a sling (that I can see!), and his left arm is at a shallow angle. He must be continuously contracting his left biceps, right? Should I assume that this is "OK" without a sling, and just conclude that I need better muscle tone?
 
Here is a better picture of the prone position. Notice the right knee. Cocking the knee in this position takes the pressure off the diaphragm making breathing easier and allowing for a more relaxed position. You can bet he's not holding the rifle up via mussel power.

Prone%20Position.jpg
 
They don't charge much, some don't charge at all. I don't charge for my Clinics but you're probably closer to Ruston then Wyoming.
Click to expand...

I can only dream of living in Wyoming! In fact, if I (A) ever get a job there, or (B) retire rich enough, I plan on moving to WY as soon as possible. I went through there on a trip once, camping along the northern border of the state, and decided it's got to be about the best place in the country.

My current job has me travelling 40%, and I haven't been anywhere else that's even close! If Wyoming comes with free marksmanship clinics, that's even better ;) .
 
“Loop” Sling
This sling is our most stable sling option in the prone and sitting positions. This sling
provides a stable triangle from the hand to the elbow to the upper arm. The “Loop” sling
takes longer to “sling up” and may cause the support hand to go numb during sustained
fire.
Begin by kneeling and placing the rifle butt on the ground with the rifle
barrel leaning back against the shoulder so both hands can be used while still controlling
the muzzle of the rifle. Remove the clip from the rear swivel and form a loop from the
webbing in the center of the buckle. Pull the webbing out until a loop is formed that is
big enough to easily place your support side arm through.
Looking down at the sling while it hangs in a “natural” position, (as it lays flat normally).
Rotate the loop about a quarter turn to the right (left handed shooters a quarter turn to the
left) and insert the support arm through the loop until the loop is above the bicep. Cinch
the loop snug and notice that the hardware is on the outside of the arm. Loosen the sling
cam and adjust the sling to length for the shooting position. Place the support hand
between the stock and the sling so that the sling lies flat across the back of the hand, is
anchored above the bicep and is snug.
 
Face the target and index (turn) about 30 degrees to “trigger hand side”
of the target. Lie down on your stomach and roll about 1/8th turn toward the support
side. While propping up on the “flat” or back of your forward elbow, shoulder the rifle.
Watch that you don’t put the muzzle in the dirt! Keep the front hand open or lightly
gripping the rifle. The sling should be under the back of the hand, above the bicep and snug enough to relax and support the rifle with no muscle input. The forward elbow
should be as nearly under the rifle as possible. Remind the shooters that if the front sight
does not fall and rise vertically when you inhale and exhale then their elbow is not far
enough under the rifle. The support side leg is extended straight back in line with the
spine. The trigger side leg should be drawn up as far as possible and the foot moved
outward. Ideally the trigger side thigh and calf form an approximate 90-degree angle.
The trigger side elbow should be on the mat and spaced properly so that weight is on it.
The trigger hand should grip the stock with a “firm handshake grip”, pulling the butt back
into the shoulder pocket snugly while not “dragging wood”. Turkey neck and get a good
cheek weld with perfect sight alignment
 
some other sources of instruction for this and other positions can be found on you tube with search for "fundamentals of rifle marksmanship" this is a 3 part series from the army recorded in 1942. The second source I would recomend would be to attend an appleseed. For info on appleseed check out www.appleseedinfo.org
 
Prone Vs Using a Bipod ?

Question: If one can master or come close to the prone position, how does it compare to using a bipod for accurate shooting? Thanks for any comments, Eagle
 
Bipods jump around and don't fall back into position like a good sling position.

If you deside to use bipods, I would highly recommend you learn the sling position first, then use the bipod as a supplement to the sling position, not as a replacement.

Once one learns to find and use a good sling position you'll find out it is more accurate then using a bipod.

People tend to report the sling position is too slow to get into, I contend that its not. If the sling is mounted on the rifle properly, one can start getting the sling on as he goes to ground, by the time the position if obtained the sling is on and ready to go. Much faster then extending the bipods and getting them laid out and loaded.

Do a search on the web for those old WWII videos teaching GIs to use the M1. Also using the sling works better in setting or knelling positions in the cases where you find the grass is too high or other reasons you can't use a prone position.

Go to Perry or one of the Service Matches and take a look at the Infantry Trophy match, Those guys get into position pretty dern quick.
 
So he doesn't have a sling (that I can see!), and his left arm is at a shallow angle. He must be continuously contracting his left biceps, right?
Click to expand...
He's "cheating" but you have to look closely to see what's going on. He's resting the magazine on the ground and using it as sort of a "monopod".

You can certainly shoot prone without a sling, but a sling will give you the best results. Especially if you don't have a bipod or a magazine long enough to reach the ground.
 
He's "cheating" but you have to look closely to see what's going on. He's resting the magazine on the ground and using it as sort of a "monopod".
Click to expand...

You're EXACTLY RIGHT...he IS cheating. Monopoding DOES NOT allow your body to "learn" the right position for prone, and is counterproductive. Anybody I catch "monopoding" on my line will be chastised and encouraged to do prone the "right" way...like kraigwy's pics. Only thing I don't like is his "support leg"...he's digging his toe in. We like the foot laying flat (some folks can't do that though).

Ben
 
Based on this discussion, I tried working with a sling I have on my Tikka T3 -- it's not exactly what you guys are talking about, but it's close. I notice that by adding sling tension it makes a huge difference. I think I'll take you guys up on your advice and take a class... maybe we have an Appleseed coming up around here sometime...

Though I'll still have to buy a better sling. And I'll have to work out a sling mount on my pellet gun for practicing!
 
jephthai,
try using a heavy duty wire tie to mount your swivel on your pellet gun.
#10 solid copper wire also will work.
Not pretty, but, they are functional and get the job done for now.

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=21812.0 is a link to an Appleseed Marksmanship clinic in Sherburne, LA, (near Baton Rouge) over the June 4 weekend. Through attendance at one of these clinics, Saturday and Sunday, you will learn a lot about you and your rifle, skills you can take back home and work on to perfection.
 
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