Problems with new Encore barrel

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obiwannabe

New member
I ordered a 460 S&W barrel for my Encore from the MGM booth at the last Wanenmacher's show in Tulsa. Got a great "show price" (at least compared to the website). It's a 24" heavy contour stainless barrel with their integral muzzle brake. It arrived about 3 weeks ago. The fit an finish were perfect. Absolutely tight lock-up, zero play in the hinge pin. Last weekend I went and bought a set of Lee dies, Hornady 300gr XTP Mags, WLRM primers, Hornady cases and a pound of IMR4227. Loaded up and went to break it in New Year's Eve day.

Took 5 rounds and a lot of adjustment to get it on paper at 25yds. Took it to 50yds and it was all over the place. When I got anything that resembled a group it was 3"-3.5" at best. They were as bad as maybe 9-10" inches (didn't exactly measure those). No stringing, just random holes--up there, then way done there, then back up there and over a bit. I tried at 100yds but couldn't even hit a 17"x22" piece of cardboard in 5 shots. I persisted back at 50yds going through a usual litany of potential issues--check scope mount, rings, forearm screws, buttstock screw--all okay. I spent the rest of my 50rds working with the forearm. I tried super tight screws, just hand tight screws, spacing with washers, and finally removed it altogether and moved my front rest to sit under the receiver just ahead of the trigger guard (totally free-floating the barrel). Nothing made a difference.

Here's a sample of 7 shots at 50yds, no forearm (free-floating barrel). The load is 38gr of IMR4227 (Hodgdon manual's range is 36-40gr). These went over the chrony at just 2020fps. I numbered the shot order. No adjustments were made between shots. The point of aim is highlighted in red. Again, this is only 50 yards!


Given the huge vertical dispersion, my shooting buddy and I finally decided that I must have killed the scope. It's a Burris E1 3-9x, which was a great hunting scope on my 270, but even with the brake the 460 is still a decent thumper.

This morning I put the scope back on the 270 to check it. I had it dialed back in in 5 shots and it was dead on and totally consistent for three more 5-shot groups, all an inch or less at 100yds. I don't think there's anything wrong with the scope. Unless the 270 just can't generate enough oomph to make it fail.

So I don't know what else to do but contact MGM. Have I missed anything before I go to the manufacturer? It's completely unusable as it is.

I'm very concerned that the brake might be the culprit. I haven't read of any problems with their integral brake though I've never heard anyone talk of it on a 460. It is very slightly back-bored but there is essentially no crown. Just a few thousandths of an inch shelf where the rifling was reamed away.
 
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The first thing I would do is pick up a box of .454 factory ammo and just see what those do for giggles. If they tighten up nicely then I would lean towards your loads. If those don't shoot well, then I'd start to suspect the barrel.

Are you absolutely sure the hinge pin is tight? They can go in snugly due to snug frame holes but if the barrel hole is oversized it will appear to be snug but the barrel can still wiggle.
 
I can't make the thing wiggle. Open or closed, with and without the forearm. There is zero play up/down, side-to-side or front-to-back.

Could this degree of nonsense be due to the weapon "not liking" a load? Have you ever had a load shoot 2" at 100 yards, change the powder and have it open up to 25 inches? I did try 10 rounds with 39gr of some H110 that I have on hand for 44 Mag. No difference other than a harder whack to the shoulder.
 
Could this degree of nonsense be due to the weapon "not liking" a load?
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Yes, that's why Doyle suggested using a box of factory ammo. I've had barrels give shotgun patterns until I found the right loading.
 
Well, to be fair, the first 25 rounds down the tube were a ladder of 4227 from 38gr to 40gr in 0.5gr increments. I thought to start the workup during the break-in. I did also try the H110 I mentioned earlier. So I have tried 7 different loads with two powders. I know that's not much yet so I'll keep at the load development. The issue just seemed so wildly out of proportion to anything I've experienced yet I thought there must be some huge issue I was missing.

The problem with factory ammo for the 460 is that Hornady's $25/box FTX ammo is way too fast out of a rifle for the bullet's construction. Any factory ammo with a decent all-copper bullet is upwards of $60/box.
 
The crown looks fine to me.

The important part of the rifling has been taken care of, and anything beyond that is cosmetic

You need to try more loads and a few different bullets before deciding there's a barrel problem

It may well be it just doesn't like the Hornady bullet

What's the twist rate?
 
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The problem with factory ammo for the 460 is that Hornady's $25/box FTX ammo is way too fast out of a rifle for the bullet's construction. Any factory ammo with a decent all-copper bullet is upwards of $60/box.
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Which is why I said to use .454 ammo (or even .45 Colt if you can find some cheap). All you are doing with the lower powered stuff is verify if there is something inherently wrong with the barrel using a known, consistent load.
 
What's the twist rate?
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MGM makes theirs with a default 1:16 twist. That's why I started with a 300gr bullet.

I got an Academy gift card for Xmas from the in-laws. They had the 240gr XTP Mag so I grabbed a free box of those. At least it's a different weight.
 
I still can't get anything better than a 3.5" groups at 50 yards. I've put about 120 rounds down the tube with 2 powders in 5 charge weights, 3 bullets in 2 different weights, at 5 seating depths with no appreciable improvement. I've also tried two different scopes. I have learned a few things to add to this. Maybe some of these observations will mean something to someone here. I'm getting a little sick of

I get a lot of sooting on the cases all the way down the to the web.

The chamber has rather rough tooling marks. They are rough enough to transfer to the fired cases. I can feel the marks if I stick my little finger in the breech.

The cases expand asymmetrically. When I noticed this I started orienting the cases the same way each time I chambered one. There is a distinct bulge just above the case web in the 12:00 position.

The chamber has about .250" of freebore. Handloads seated to a SAAMI spec COAL of 2.160" are jumping 0.170" to the lands. I tried a ladder of IMR4227 loads with COAL's from 2.330" (at the lands) to 2.210" (0.120" jump) in 0.030" increments. The longer loads shot better than the shorter ones but nothing better than the 3.5" 50-yard groups mentioned earlier. I didn't try it with H110 because of the extra air space in the case.

The weapon has started unlocking when fired. It started as maybe one in three shots. 25 rounds later it does it every single time. Bang--flop open. I ended my range session early today because of this. I use Lee dies and fully size each case.

I haven't found a box of factory ammo to try yet. I know Bass Pro carries the Hornady 200gr FTX load but the shelf above the price tag is consistently empty. It is somewhat irrelevant because I'll never shoot factory ammo while hunting, but I'll eventually try it just to see what happens.

MGM has not responded to an email I sent a week ago.
 
The weapon has started unlocking when fired.
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That is normally a sign of poor fitting locking bolts. Use a marker to blacken the tops of the bolts and close the rifle a few times to see how much of the mark rubs off.
 
I have never shot the Encore, but I suspect it behaves similar to its little brother the Contender, which I have extensive experience with. The Contender is notorious on the .444, .30-30, .375 JdJ,.45/70 etc for vertical stringing. Most times, the problem is not in the firearm, it is in the scope mounting system. The scope base is very long. It is fully supported at the back, but has no fastening system at the front. An inferior base, or even a good one with a heavy scope on it will actually flex up and down when shot. If it flexed up and came back to the same point, there would be no problem, but they for some reason do not return to the same point. There are some good heavy steel bases available for the Encore that will eliminate the problem with most scopes. I have seen some Contender pistols that had rifle scopes on them for match use where the base had to be tigged to the barrel. That in and of itsself opens up another whole can of worms.
 
I certainly feel for the OP...

I like the idea of trying some 454 Casull or 45 Colt, for the reasons listed, & for the shooter as well... are you experienced at shooting this type of weapon??? they can be both brutal on the recoil, & in the muzzle blast... some shooters are never able to overcome these traits, of ported heavy pistol barrels... ( I also don't own an Encore, but collect Contenders, & my pro hunter 45-70 is the closest I own, to what the OP is shooting )

... is the Hornady brass shorter than SAMMI spec. ??? I know a lot of their brass made specifically for the FTX bullets run short ( I won't buy their 45-70 brass for this exact reason... if the cases are shorter, it's possible you could be seeing something either from the crimps, ( inconsistent, or insufficient ) or the freebore, if they are short, with the heavy bullets... I don't load for the 460, are large rifle magnum primers recommended???
 
Recoil is actually not that bad. The integral brake certainly works. I'd say it's no worse than a .30-06 in a typical weight hunting rifle. It's a thumper but it's not brutal.

Most times, the problem is not in the firearm, it is in the scope mounting system.
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I had MGM install one of their custom 4-hole mounts which are solid steel and pretty stout, but the front end does hover since it's not a bull barrel. Has anyone ever tried bedding the front of the scope mount?

... is the Hornady brass shorter than SAMMI spec. ???
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Yes, it is. Or, at least, it was. I bought 50 pieces and they've now been fired 3 times. About half of them had stretched to the recommended 1.79" trim length after the second firing. After the 3rd firing better than 90% are there.

if the cases are shorter, it's possible you could be seeing something either from the crimps, ( inconsistent, or insufficient ) or the freebore, if they are short, with the heavy bullets... I don't load for the 460, are large rifle magnum primers recommended???
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I'm not crimping these loads. First, because I don't have to worry about the bullets creeping under recoil with a single-shot weapon. Second, the most recent batch were all seated long, well behind the cannelure. My first batch with 4227 were crimped and all of the H110 loads were crimped, but that was before I started messing with the COAL. WLRM primers are recommended in the Hodgdon manual.
 
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Just got back from another short range session with this barrel.

I cleaned the locking lug and recess of some oil and it did not open on firing today. Maybe that's all to took to fix it.

I shot my best group yet--2.75" at 50 yards. That was the 240gr XTP Mag over 44gr of IMR4227 at 2.160" COAL with a roll crimp, forearm on with "finger-tight" screws. I had tried that load before without the crimp and without the forearm and it shot around 3". Not a huge difference. 2.75" is still entirely unacceptable. After 150 rounds of testing various stuff I really don't think my loads are the problem.

There is a huge POI change when switching between the 300gr and 240gr bullets. When "sighted in" (which means centering the scatter on an 8.5"x11" paper target) for the 300gr XTP Mags at 50 yards, the 240gr XTP Mags hit 11.5" high.

I guess I have to keep bugging MGM until someone responds. I'm really just sick of throwing money down the barrel without any appreciable improvement.
 
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I guess I'm just stuck with this one. In the past 3 weeks I've sent 3 emails and called twice. Left a message once on a machine and once with a real person because folks were "out to lunch". All I ever got was the promise of a return call. That last call was almost a week ago.

MGM is obviously uninterested in doing any customer service whatsoever.

I was hoping they'd be my supplier from now on, but there's no way I'm buying another barrel from them after this.
 
I've put about 120 rounds down the tube with 2 powders in 5 charge weights, 3 bullets in 2 different weights, at 5 seating depths with no appreciable improvement.
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2 powders??? That's all you've tried? There have been quite a few times that my best loads have come after the 6th - 8th powder. There are more than just 2 powders recommended for the .460. Keep trying.
 
I can get 4227 and H4198 locally. That's about it. No H110 (or 296), no Lil Gun, no Power Pistol or 300-MP, no AA2400, No9, 5744, or 4100. I get what I can get.

I paid too much for a pound of H110 at a gun show a few months back. If I wait for the next gun show I may get the privilege of paying $35-$40 for a pound of Lil Gun.

I have some H4198 loads made up now waiting to be tested.

I would really just like to talk to SOMEBODY at MGM about it to see what they think.
 
i've bought four new barrels (20 vartarg, 22-250ai, 6.5 creedmoor, 444 marlin) for my encores, everyone of them is sub-minute of angle, 3 are chromemoly, 1 is stainless, and all four are standard neck dia and heavy factory barrels.

keep calling them. try early in the morning or late in the day(i think its mountian time?, so call accordingly). email doesn't work all that well.

i'd like to hear what they think about it. please keep us informed.
 
I would call MGM and ask for suggestions. Last time i remember, if you send a barrel back to them for accuracy issues and they find it to shoot fine, they charge you a fair amount of $$. But it sounds to me something is wrong with the barrel. It shouldn't shoot that bad with any kind of load.
 
I bought a second hand Encore with the fluted 30-06 barrel on it. It has a section of rail on the top of the barrel so I borrowed the scope off my SR-762 and was getting dollar size groups at 50 yards off hand. I mainly wanted to be sure it worked and have only had it out that one time.
 
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