Problem with open bolt fired 308 brass

M

Machineguntony

New member
I just got back into long range shooting and bought a bolt action 308, a Remington 700 SPS.

I'm having a problem with brass that was previously shot in my open bolt guns. The reloaded round (with that brass) will not chamber in my bolt action gun, no matter what I do to the brass.

When I say that the round won't chamber, I mean the the bolt handle will not go down into its closed position.

It's Lake City brass.

I've resized the brass with a regular Dillon 308 die. That didn't allow the round to chamber in the rifle.

Then I used a RCBS small base die. That didn't allow chambering of the round either.

The dimensions on the brass are all correct. I trimmed the brass. The measurements on the finished round are all correct. I also seated the bullet deeper to make sure that the bullet wasn't contacting the rifling.

The rounds chamber and fire fine in my open bolt guns, but they won't chamber in the bolt gun. I realize the open bolt guns have more generous chambers, but I thought the resizing die was supposed to resize the brass to SAAMI specs.

As a comparative test, I borrowed my friends 308 once fired brass, that he had shot out of his bolt gun. Those reloaded rounds chambered and fired fine out of my bolt gun.

Any thoughts on what's going on? Any solutions to use this brass in a bolt gun?
 
Will the brass case gauge?

If you can't fix them with regular dies you need a roll sizer.

They size the portion of the case that the regular sizing process cannot, because that part of the case is in a shell holder.

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I use one of mine mine for machine gun ammo too so I automated it.

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Will keep chewing but it sounds like the head space is too long

Have you checked to see how far you are bumping the shoulder back?
 
Buy a cartridge headspace gage and determine if the base to shoulder distance is correct. Don't assume that it is unless you have a way to measure it.

Then, if case headspace is OK, how about a new Roll Sizer?. That thing looks like a great idea.
 
Good advice. I just ordered a case gauge.

I'm trying to utilize my Lake City 308 brass so that I don't have to buy separate 308 brass, which will very likely eventually be unintentionally mixed in with the Lake City brass. I literally have tens of thousands of pieces of Lake City Brass.
 
If you get serious about long range shooting you will come to realize you have more time into your brass than you would want to mix with your belt fed brass.

That said I have some pretty good loads that cross over between them all but there is a big difference between 300 yards and 1000 yards.
 
head space

2xs head space problem.

Have you tried store bought ammo to see if that chambers correctly? If not, it's the rifle.

I had a similar problem with a 6mm and it was head space. Simple fix by adjusting the dies .

I would not use small base dies for bolt action rifle.
 
Tonight I shot some factory ammo and the rounds chambered just fine. Reloads with bolt action fired brass also works fine.

At this point, based on what everyone says, it's probably the headspace that is the issue.

Slow shooting a bolt action is a nice change of pace. There's certain zen quality to it that's very relaxing.

Here are some pics that may help with a diagnosis.

Here is the reloaded round in an open bolt chamber. It passes the plunk test easily.



Here is the exact same round refusing to close on the bolt action rifle. That's the farthest down that the bolt will go.



Here is a side by side of a factory round next to the same reloaded round. The factory round chambers without a problem.

 
Anneal and trim to minimum tolerance. First thing to do.

Open bolts? are so fast in ejection their brass quite often show excessive growth when measured.


When such open bolt brass is resized for yet another chamber there is also a need for Re-Set of Shoulder Set Back so to match that new chamber. Improper Shoulder Set-Back will not allow a bolt to fully close without excessive force being applied.

When I have to re-set shoulder set back on a rifle. I fire a factory new cartridge for the measurments needed. To apply and adjust my Resizing die to match.
 
There are two places where you can bind up, either the "cartridge headspace" is to long, or the case head is too fat.

My bet is on the case head being too fat, and as previously mentioned needing to be rolled back into spec.

Milspec chambers are often good on headspace, but generous on the body so that the brass has plenty of room to not get bound up by a speck of dirt. I've seen it in plenty of M240 and M249 chambers and Swede M96 and M38 chambers.

Instead of using your machine gun brass for your bolt rifle, I recommend getting some Lapua or even Lake City LR marked brass and segregating it for your bolt rifle. You'll get better accuracy than using M80 brass.

Jimro
 
You can check and see if head space is your problem by just cranking the die down further (maybe a 1/4 turn) and see if that changes your bolt position when you try to close it.

If it doesn't, your case is too fat.
 
I agree with Jimro. How much trouble could it be to keep some rifle brass separate from the MG brass?

Many people have struggled with sizing down surplus MG brass to use in their rifles. I am not one of them.
 
*IF* its a head space issue...
The LC brass is pretty hard, and a blown out case will be 'Work Hardened',
I would recommend annealing before trying to push the sides of the case back in where they belong,
And pushing the shoulder back down where it belongs will require dead soft brass, and it will take a good die to shape the brass correctly (match die).
You will get better results in a bolt gun with a match die anyway...

We are talking a chunk of brass here, you can re-form it fairly easily once you figure it out what the primary issue is.
 
I love that brass that whips-up on those presses and then there is case lube, when the going gets tuff I have trouble making Imperial and Dillon in a can or bottle look good. And then there are reloaders that that have no clue which one won; the case or the press. My presses and dies have threads; when the case has more resistance to sizing than the press can overcome I screw the die in an additional fractional turn of the die. If I lower the die an additional full turn of the die with 14 threads per inch I am lowering the die .0711429":eek:; if the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die is not reduced the press goes into a 9 line bind. When that happens to one of my presses I measure the gap with a feeler gage.

And then there is persistence; a reloader should know the difference in dimensions between the case and die. I have RCBS dies that will keep every case shoved into them, the difference between the diameter of the case above the web and die is .005". I have 30/06 cases that have thicker case head thickness. some measure .260" from the cup above the web to the case head and I have cases that have a case head thickness of .200" from the cup above the web to the case head. When someone tells me everything they know about sizing a case they claim the thickness of the case head does not matter. Those are the same reloaders that claim the diameter and length of the powder column does not matter.

In attempt to convince the die it was designed to size cases back to minimum length I have stuck 10 cases out of 10 cases. If there was such a thing as a 'too' small base die I would believe the doe is it. Anyhow, I have at least 2 sets that qualify. And I have small base dies and BAR dies.

F. Guffey
 
You can also make your own headspace gauge by buying a bushing that goes 1/2 way down the should. Then measure between the top of the bushing your the end of the head (Primer end). Then compare a fired case to a reloaded case. That will tell you if the headspace is too long.

Are you camming your press handle all of the way in the down stroke when sizing?
 
Very informative stuff. And yes, I am camming all the way down.

I'm thinking now that it might be a fat neck. Now that I look at it, the neck does look fatter on the reload.

So how do you solve the fat neck issue without having to buy a separate roll sizing machine? Is there a specific reloading die that will resize the fat neck?

I'm thinking I'll just make a bin for separate 308 bolt action brass.

Always something to learn, everyday.
 
I'm thinking now that it might be a fat neck. Now that I look at it, the neck does look fatter on the reload.

So how do you solve the fat neck issue without having to buy a separate roll sizing machine? Is there a specific reloading die that will resize the fat neck?

I'm thinking I'll just make a bin for separate 308 bolt action brass.
Click to expand...

A fat case neck would cause the bolt to not get anywhere near "turning down" as it would have a mechanical interference with the neck area behind the throat.

If you had a weird chamber with a shorter than trim length neck area before the lede started, maybe you could get the symptoms you are getting, but if it's a stock Rem chamber, odds are it's pretty generous in order to handle a large array of bullet weights and shapes.

But, the only real way to thin a neck is to neck turn.

I think your seperate bin for bolt rifle brass is a great idea.

Jimro
 
I'm thinking now that it might be a fat neck. Now that I look at it, the neck does look fatter on the reload.
Click to expand...

Thinking and looking doesn't do much good in this case (no pun intended).

You need tools so you know what the problem is.
 
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