Problem was the scope, not the Ruger Hawkeye

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Several times recently I've vented on my problems with trying to find an accurate bullet/powder combination for my Ruger Hawkeye in 223. I tried about 4 powders and 4 different bullet combinations and have burned much powder and loading bench time. Today, when the rifle shot 3 in one hole and then threw 2 high and wide fliers (one 2 inches high left and one 2 inches high right), it occurred to me that maybe the problem was the scope. I swapped it for an old Bushnell 3X12 that had a good 'work' history, and the gun then put 4 in one very small hole and the 5th just a tiny bit to one side. My problem these past weeks was the Nikon Monarch 4X16 scope. It worked fine for a while, but slowly degraded, giving me bad and very puzzling groups with every powder and bullet combo I tried. The Nikon goes back to Gander Mountain tomorrow and will be replaced by a Leupold. So...my deepest and most sincere apologies to Ruger and to any of ya'll that might have made a gun buying decision based on any forum statement I have made regarding Ruger out of the box accuracy. I was wrong. And I won't buy another Nikon scope ever again. I again love my Ruger. Now I need to decide which Leupold scope to buy.
 
I am a little perplexed that you blame your problem on a top-shelf scope and never mention the mounts? I now have eight Nikon scopes, all three grade levels, zero problems-including repeatability. I have two of the older Redfields. One is blurry around the edges, the other is fine. Both have always been repeatable. I have 2 Simmons Aetecs, no problems. I have a Simmins Whitetail Hunter. On a .22 centerfire, no problems. On a light weight muzzle loader, shotgun patterns instead of bullet groups.

I have only two Leupolds left, mostly due to the greed of their company. My M8 pistol scope is great. The VX-III on my M70 gives the most trouble of any premium scope I own. Every single year, I must check and readjust zero on this scope. Most times, it's off by 4-5" from center. Most of the other scopes I've mentioned haven't been moved by more than 2" from center in at least five years or more. I'd have to check the mounts to make sure the scope tube isn't binding before blaming one of today's premier hunting optics, but that's just me.

-7-
 
I did check the mounts. The gun had me so frustrated that I started working through the things that might be the problem: Bolt lug contact, stock (I replaced with expensive bedded job), lug screw torque, scope mounts (removed, checked, tightened), case prep (extensive). I was about ready to put another barrel on it. The only thing that I didn't think to do was to try another scope. Finally today that thought occurred to me. So I took the Bushnell off the Ruger 308 (which shoots great) and put it on the Hawkeye. Both guns have Ruger mounts. The difference was astounding. I went from shooting random 2 inch groups to putting 4 in one hole and one just outside. With the Nikon, I'd get a 4 inch vertical string and then reload the 5 same cases and shoot another group that was huge but not at all vertical. Just bizarre. Like nothing I had ever seen before. I even dragged out and shot another proven gun to make sure the problem wasn't me. It's the scope. It won't hold a zero. Lots of folks have Nikon scopes and are very happy with them. I just got a bad one. I'll replace it, but I'll replace it with Leupold (6.5X20 AO, VXIII) and pay the upgrade fee.
 
I feel you on the randomness of a scope and not being able to figure it out. I Put about 300rds downrange last weekend through my new AR i purchase, tossed an aim sports 4x32 tactical scope on it.

This is going to be my daughter's rifle, but i took it out to get a good zero and test out all her tacticool stuff she made me buy for it. needless to say after the first 50rds i thought the rifle was thrashed to bad to shoot. I bought it used for a good deal and thought i had figured out why.

Put it on a lead sled and still was getting wierd grouping. come to find out there is one little allen head bolt on the bottom of the scope mount that was loose. Tightened it up and no more problems, and she shot the last 100rds more accurately than me. Which is awesome to see as that was only the second time she has touched a rifle :D
 
My experience with the Ruger 77's is back while Bill was still running the place,and of the 4 that I helped develop loads for,all were sub MOA.I have known other folks who owned them who were quite impressed by their accuracy.I do not have recent experience with them,this is 20 years ago.As for your scope experience...I do not make much money,and over the years,every once and a while I buy a medium grade ,200+ dollar scope of non-Leupold brand.After a time,they usually become a take-off,and get replaced.
I Think I paid $599 for my M-70 Laredo closeout special,,and the Leupold 4.5-14 M1 Longrange Milldot 30 mm tube,50 mm obj,side focus was around $800 online discount back then.I'd guess its $1200+ now.The take-off was a B+L Elite 4000,4.5 to 16 x 50mm,adj obj.Actually,not a bad scope,but the duplex and turrets weren't up to what I needed.
Its like buying tools.Sometimes,Harbor Freight is a reasonable choice,if you have reasonable expectations.Sometimes,Snap-On or Starrett or Browne and Sharpe are the way to go.
 
I'm sure it was because the nikon felt insulted by being strapped to a ruger. And your groups are lies. We all know only a savage rifle could possibly shoot a one ragged hole group.

7mmnut, why don't you send that vx-3 back to leupold? They'll either fix it or replace it for free. That would seem a lot better than constantly arguing with it.
 
Hi mdd,

You may have a point. I suppose that it's possible that the Nikon rejected me and my Ruger. I had not considered that possibility. As for the ragged one hole group, absolutely nobody could have been more surprised than me. I had been flogging bullets all over the various targets, more like a shotgun than a rifle, so when I fired the second shot, I didn't see a new hole. Well...heck...where'd that one go? Lord only knows...Maybe this next one will print somewhere I can find it. And again...where the heck did the bullet go? So strange. So I shot a 4th shot and the hole got noticeably bigger. Hmmm! Can it be? Couldn't tell much from the spotting scope, so I took a hike to the target. I could see that it was cloverleaf shape, but more round than cloverleaf. I could see markings of 4 bullets. That rifle had never shot like that. I didn't think it was capable of shooting like that. I twitched the 5th shot a bit and it went 1/4 inch left. That same bullet/powder combo had shot a 2 inch group on Friday. All my life I've never had a bad scope that wasn't obviously bad (fogged up or blurry). This Nikon was sneaky bad. Live and learn.
 
I am a little perplexed that you blame your problem on a top-shelf scope and never mention the mounts?
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If the problem was fixed by swapping the scope then why would you be perplexed that he blamed the scope? :confused:
That's a real bummer when you step up and pay the money for a high quality product and it fails on you.
 
To the OP what Nikon Monarch do you have? I just recently bought the Nikon Monarch 4-16x50mm BDC I put it on my 700 ADL .270 and my rifle wasn't grouping great I have been thinking it was my rifle now you got me wondering if it is the scope not holding zero. I think I am going to pull it off and put it on my .308 that I know will print 1/2 MOA groups all day to test it, if I put it on that rifle and the groups wonder then I know it is the scope not the rifle. Also I have picatinny rails on both guns so it would be an easy swap.
 
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I am a little perplexed that you blame your problem on a top-shelf scope and never mention the mounts? I now have eight Nikon scopes, all three grade levels, zero problems-including repeatability
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I'm not trying to single you out here; but...
My father spoke words very similar to that, many times over the last year.

Just a few days ago, when I talked to him...
He told me he would never buy another Nikon. It seems his favorite Monarch took an unexpected giant crap on itself.

And, for the record - The Nikon Monarch is a far cry from "top-shelf". Most people that have seen what's available out there rate it near the bottom-end of mid-grade (including me ;)).
 
surely nothing wrong with a nikon monarch. Thing people dont keep in mind that you can get a bad scope from any manufacture and that even includes the high dollar ziess, swarovskis ect. I have got one of either but do have monarchs, many leupolds, bushnell elites ect and Ive at one time or another had to send one back from all of the manufactures. there a mechanical device and NO mechanical device is a 100 percent reliable. I chuckle when someone has a scope problem and then claims every scope from that manufactures is then junk. Buy enough of them and actually use them for something other then decorating a gun to show off to your buddys and eventually you will have a problem of some kind.
 
To Palmetto Pride - the Nikon is the 4X16X40 mm (or is it actually 42mm?). Anyway, it isn't the 50mm objective. And Lloyd Smale is probably right, in that Nikon isn't a bad scope. Still, they do offer a lot of refurbished scopes. Gotta wonder where those come from. Over the many years, I have had other scopes fail on me (one weaver and one redfield). I suppose that I just have a lot of trust in Leupold, based on years of using them, so I'll go with them again to replace the Nikon. I might try a Nikon again sometime. I really liked the scope. I'm just not ready to try them again today.
 
THis is the first I have ever heard someone having problems with a Monarch. But then again it could have been other factors involving the scope. Bases, rings, was the scope level etc.... These are all things you have to take in account when mounting optics on a gun.

Many people make the mistake of just slapping scopes on w/o really going through the proper steps of making sure it is mounted correctly.

Now i'm not saying you don't know how to mount a scope or anything of the sort, but there are other factors involving optics holding zero.

When it doesn't hold zero, I tend to look at other factors and not the scope itself.
 
Sure are a lot of doubters on the fact Nikon doesn't make a top of the line scope on here. Personal experience has dispelled any myth of their quality or lack thereof IMO. No doubt that all things mechanical can and do fail at some point, that's a given. The issue is that Nikon's seem to do it more often than other manufacturers. The point was made that you can find nice low prices on refurbished Nikons, to borrow a phrase I read on here one time, "No thanks, I'll take mine furbished the first time." I just will not trust a product that has let me down in the field when that moment in time arises twice. A warranty that lasts 1000 years isn't worth a crap when that nice buck or bull is running the other way unharmed or worse with a long death sentence from a gutshot.

I guess you'll hear horror stories from anyone from time to time but it seems on here, one brand pops up with problems/failures at a rate of 3X or more than the others. I truely hope that all of you with the love affiar with Nikon never have to experience a lost chance or bad shot because of their product but will not be suprised if you do. While I know it really isn't practical for many, I adopted a rule that IF I'm prepared to spend $X on a rifle then I'll spend the same amount of $X on a scope, preferably by companies that have a long history of quality and don't offer page after page of bargain deals on refurbished (read: it failed one time, chances are it'll do it again) products.
 
I'm not a huge fan of Nikon products own a couple scopes and binoculars but I just don't see the overall quality as in years past, just an opinion not trashing others products I don't believe you can be brand loyal in todays world market too much outsourcing, changing parts manufactures, what you buy today is not what you may purchase next month.
 
Ill tell you why you see alot of nikon refurbs and not leupolds. When you send a nikon in for repair 9 times out of 10 they just send you a new scope. I think what they do is give you a new one and send your old one back for refurbishing to resell them as refirbs. Leupold rarely sends you a new scope. Instead you wait over a month for them to fix yours. Either way doesnt matter to me but what was nice about nikon for me was i recently sent in two things. A 3x9 monarch that was just missing the rubber ring that protects your eye from recoil and my 10 year old monarch binocs that i dropped and wouldnt focus out past 300 yards anymore. In both cases i not only got them replaced but replaced by there latested updated products. I once sent the same leupold 2x7 to the factory 3 times because it wouldnt hold zero. It would have been cheaper for them to replace it then work on it three times. They finally got it right but i went a half a year without that scope in use. I like leupolds and have more of them then all the rest of the makes combined but there far from perfect. Just last year i bought a 2x7 vx1 that wouldnt hold zero new right out of the box. Now ill tell you the scopes ive had the most problems with. those would be buris. I dont think i owned a buris that wasnt at sometime returned for repair and would waste a plugged nickle on anohter one.
 
Well, I guess the point here might be to stick with brands that have lifetime service contracts, whether you use them or not. My own scope trouble seems to be contributed to mounts that are a little too high and scopes with weak turret springs and/or worn adjustment screws. When I get fed up enough, I'll just send them back for service.

Like raising my kids, all I can do here is hope to impress my own mistakes on others so you can skip some of the headaches I've had to endure. The little Pro Staff I put on my Marlin MLS 50 last fall was a true testament to what a good scope will do for accuracy improvement. With a cheap Simmons, 2-3" groups moving around at 100 yards. Put on a Pro Staff 3-9X40, and it literally cut a figure 8 four different times at 100. For me, it's a keeper. For you all, whatever. Good shootin'.

-7-
 
Nikon Refurbs

Guys, I keep seeing this kind of post and I'll keep answering the question. Nikon refurbs are NOT scopes that are fixed at a later date and resold. They are scopes used for testing,sent to writers,dealer demo's and such, NOT damaged goods. If a scope can not be repaired it is replaced and the problem scope taken out of circulation. I hope this helps?
Bart
 
Guys, I keep seeing this kind of post and I'll keep answering the question. Nikon refurbs are NOT scopes that are fixed at a later date and resold. They are scopes used for testing,sent to writers,dealer demo's and such, NOT damaged goods. If a scope can not be repaired it is replaced and the problem scope taken out of circulation. I hope this helps?
Bart
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Refurbs have a 90 day warranty... No thanks....
 
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