Private party selling?

H

heck333

New member
Hi all... I am a newly-registered long-time lurker, and I have a question. I am thinking about selling a couple pistols that I no longer need and was planning on selling them face to face in state. However, I am not sure how one goes about that... what type of documentation does one usually ask for? Is it considered bad form to ask for a copy of the drivers license, or to ask the buyer to sign a receipt? Or is just getting a verbal affirmative as to their eligiblity for handgun ownership par for the course? I know someone here can help with the answers.

Greg
 
Johnny Law would reccomend one of these for FTF transfers:

http://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652004.pdf

Just fill in the blanks and follow the instructions. It's all that's necessary for nice and legal sales FTF.

It is VOLUNTARY, and becomes part of public record, so if you hate that idea keep that in mind.
 
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If you had to fill out a 4473 form when you bought them, then i'd suggest get some positive ID info on the purchaser........If not , then it is possible to be entangled in legal action if they are used in a crime.......The long and short... C Y A !!!
 
Depends on your state. check the laws. or buy a reputable FFL a couple of cups of coffee and pick his brains, and THEN check the laws.

Here in KY, there is no form filling out requirement for ftf transfers if you are not FFL. It IS, however, unlawful to KNOWINGLY transfer to someone whom you KNOW is ineligible. Also, currently (may be revoked at any time by BATFE), KY's CCW permit suffices in lieu of the NICS background check.

You might check to see how that plays out in WA, and possibly considering only selling to a CCW holder, if that's feasible.
 
Check out the forum rules

regarding selling items here on the forum. Not that you are required to follow them if you advertise and sell guns say through your local paper, but they are very good suggestions. (Note that you do agree to follow said rules if you advertise in the gun show section here, though.)

By making anyone buying your gun go through a local FFL holder (read: dealer) you make sure that they are legal to own a gun. Most dealers charge $20-$40 to handle the paperwork for the trade. Here in Oregon, $10 of that goes to the state. I bought one face to face that way, and it worked slick. I knew the gun was clean, and the seller knew I was legal to own. We both learned what we needed to make the deal without worrying about what might pop up down the road.

Also, if you're selling, (and this is my opinion) it isn't unreasonable to expect the buyer to pay the FFL transfer fees. That was one of the questions my seller had after we agreed to make the deal. He nervously asked how I thought we would split the fee. He forgot about that little point till then. I told him I expected to pay the whole thing, since I would if I were buying from a dealer.
 
A sales contract makes good sense

The last time I sold a firearm, I drew up a simple contract in Word and printed out two copies. I'd show it to you, but that computer caught in fire (really, and while it was on my lap!).

It was just a simple thing, something along the lines of "I, (name and address) to (name and address), model and serial number, date." We both signed both copies. He's now got proof that he owns it, and I have proof that I sold it. My copy went into my safe. Although he was a trusted friend, we both felt better about that simple transaction.

My two cents.
 
When I buy a gun face to face, I will allow someone to view my DL and CCL. But I am buying FTF to AVOID a paper trail. There is no requirement in most states that you document any transfer.

If I am selling, I ask the buyer to show a DL to insure that he is in my state. If he wants a receipt, I give it to him. The BATF does not have any requirement that you do any paperwork. If the deal feels good to you, it will not come back to haunt you. If you sell to someone you know to be underage or otherwise prohibited from owning a firearm, you deserve what ever you get.

I was once visited by two agents from BATF. I purchased a gun from a dealer and subsequetly sold it at a gunshow. The gun showed up in a crimescene. They would not tell me what or where but left politely after I told them that I did not know the name of the buyer, but he showed me a DL of the state in which the deal was done.

Some of the posters on this subject which comes up all the time, sound like they are from Handgun Control.
 
Thanks for all the info! I understand some people prefer to avoid paper trails, but I want to insure I am covered in case of anything like the weapon turning up at a crime scene...

Greg
 
Greg,
I see you are from the Puget Sound region. Are you a member of WAC? If not, you should join. Firearms transactions are only allowed between members and members are pre-vetted as being eligible to buy firearms. It's easy to just copy down their member number for your records.

I always want to know where any gun I might sell goes. (Especially if it has my name attached to it in any way.) Knowing where one comes from is also wise. Anybody that refuses to give me basic ID information is somebody I won't deal with. ("Paper trail" nonwithstanding.)
Comment on the "form" that Rightwinger posted. I've been collecting, buying, selling, trading guns in Washington for over 40 years and this is the first time I have seen or even heard of such a form. Is it something new? I would fill out and file something like that only if required by law (or if I were very anal.:D )

Dean
 
what type of documentation does one usually ask for? Is it considered bad form to ask for a copy of the drivers license, or to ask the buyer to sign a receipt?
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I asked this very same question on some firearms boards and was amazed at the response. Many replied so vehemently that they must have thought I was from the ATF looking to put them in gunowner's jail.

I actually had made a deal for a FTF with someone who advertised on this board, and I emailed him that I merely wanted confirmation via driver's license number that he was who he said he was, and he told me the deal was off.

Always get confirmation/paper trail from the person with whom you do business.
 
There is no requirements in terms of a paper trail where I live. I pretty much do an informal question and answer of the questions on the 4473. I feel it is my responsibility to believe that the buyer is buying for himself, is a citizen of my state, and is of legal age to make the purchase. I would not sell to anyone that I feel uncomfortable with. I prefer to look at a drivers license and I record the sale in my own personal records as best I can.

As the seller, you are still responsible to the extent that the sale is in compliance with state and federal laws for firearm sales by an individual.

I understand that people who buy from individuals are often just looking for a good deal, don't want the paper trail, are between 18 and 21 for handguns, or simply are buying on impulse. I still have to be comfortable with the transaction especially if I completed the Form 4473 when I purchased the firearm in the first place.

Added: If you sell the gun through internet ads, you are likely to be forced into having the transaction go through a FFL dealer as the buyer is often out of state. I prefer gun shows, ads in newspaper or bargain banner type paper to advertise the sale. You have a better chance of getting a price closer to market price if you advertise or sell through a dealer via the internet. If you have any concerns about legality, just hook up with a gunshop and sell it on consignment.
 
I'm gonna append to my previous post.

Since I remembered that I've also purchased one and sold a couple of other guns FTF. And didn't use a FFL holder to accomplish either transaction. But those were all many years ago, before I knew what I know now. (Oh, ignorance can be bliss, till it bites you in the nether regions.)

That said, both of those deals were done via duplicate copies of sales receipts, signed by both buyer and seller. Purchase was done from a friend for a rifle I knew was clean; sale was for that same rifle several years later to an unknown person (answered an ad in the paper) at his residence. Multiple guns on display [wisdom of that is not at issue here], so I felt fairly certain it was a clean sale and he was legal to own. Upon consumation of that sale, he asked if I had any other guns I might be interested in parting with, and we came to a meeting of the minds on a cheap .22 revolver I had. Again, bill of sale, duplicate copies, and all was well. No federal or state paperwork, but we both had evidence if necessary of where the guns came from or went to.

Given the same circumstances, I'd do all of the above again with no changes. However, selling to someone I don't know, with no other way of knowing they're legit to own, I'd probably want to use an FFL holder and do the ATF paperwork. If they have a CHL, in a FTF deal, I'm good - that tells me they've passed inspection by the state and they're legal to own. Just fill out duplicate copies of a bill of sale, and we're good to go.

That last part mostly deals with selling, though. When buying from an unknown party, unless they can show me the purchase receipts from XYZ store, I think I'd want to use an FFL holder to make sure I'm getting a gun with a clean record. The last thing I want is to purchase a gun, then for some reason (sale, trade, use in a SD situation) have it get checked, and have it turn out to have been stolen.
 
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I let my conscience be my guide since there are no requirements. If I'm selling (rare), If I get any weird vibes from the guy I ask to see a DL. If a guy wont even flash a DL to me the deal is off. Other people I don't even ask, like the nice young couple who showed up to buy my GoldCup/Para frame conversion. They were radiating that good ol American who wants a SD pc vibe and talking safty and practice amongst themselves while deciding.

If I'm buying my conscience tells me to not offer any paper to them. If they ask I will b/c I'm not a punk and if it makes them feel better about the transaction then its the polite thing to do.
 
Just like any other transaction that could result in stick legal issues, I make out a bill of sale that i googled up on the internet that includes a basic description of the item, serial number, DL number, address of seller, etc. It protects both buyer and seller. I am not worried about somebody coming for my guns I am worried that someone may be using a gun i had owned to do harm to someone else.

I don't subscribe to the "black helicopter" theorists (yet anyways), so i am looking to protect myself from the potential of civil suit over criminal charges.
 
I know the thread is old, but,,,,

The way of the land and the anti-gun fanatics, have created (IMHO) a false fear.
I have witnessed a few court cases (Not gun related) but negligence and death were joined and in every case it was the prosecutions responsibility to prove complicity.
Selling a weapon scares me because of the hype, not of the risk someone will be hurt, but of the risk I might be involved. That is embarrassing, however it is the truth. Yet the rebel in me screams in a rage of how dare they, while the citizen in me avoids any conflict, by following any suggestion, no matter how crazy it sounds. As if selling a gun requires witches brew.
I am in the realm of attempting a few sales and all of this information is exceptional in judging the best line of legality to pursue.

Originally posted by jaysouth: Some of the posters on this subject which comes up all the time, sound like they are from Handgun Control.
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One of the pluses in going through a dealer is the buyer knows the gun is not stolen. Seller might want to avoid that situation if such is the case.
 
Excellent point Hook.
I have dealt with very few dealers in my life, but find a huge gap of prices and quality, when comparing dealer to dealer. Almost like there is little oversight or regulation concerning their business ethics.
I see transfer fees listed from $10 bucks a gun, to $60 bucks a gun, is this a case of you get what you pay for or are we citizens simply being man handled?
Plus in the instance of the last handguns I had shipped FFL to FFL, the BATF played games, holding one gun for a couple days and then releasing it without explanation or concern.
I guess I am suggestion the process is faulty and used to intimidate rather than increase safety. Very similar to the TSA.
 
It's always good to get a copy of a valid I.D. and a bill of sale, with a copy to both of you. There are several good examples of gun specific bill of sale on-line. I also make arrangements to meet the seller/buyer in the parking lot of my bank, that way I don’t have to meet a total stranger when I’m carrying lots of cash in a strange location.
 
Also, if you're selling, (and this is my opinion) it isn't unreasonable to expect the buyer to pay the FFL transfer fees
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If YOU are requesting the deal be done through an FFL when it is not legally required, then YOU should eat the FFL fee, not the seller

This whole paranoia about buying and selling FTF has really gotten out of hand in the last few years.

If your state/city has no laws against selling guns FTF - here is what is required:

A willing seller and a willing buyer coming to a mutually agreed upon form of consideration

Does everyone gets ID and BOS from every garage sale or flea market?

This paranoia is unfounded and needs to stop, as it feeds right into the anti propaganda about citizens selling their private property without government oversight
 
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