"Printing" and the "hidden from common observation" rule...??

andyb

New member
Virginia Code § 18.2-308, among other things, stipulates certain weapons as illegal, and prescribes the concealed carry rules. It then defines "concealed" using the word "hidden", to wit:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.[/quote]

I'd like opinions as to what this means with respect to "printing".
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

Andy
 
For whatever it's worth, if your gun is recognizable as a gun even though it is concealed, then you are printing and that is a no-no.
FUD
fudflag.gif
 
In spite of the Second Amendment THEY will allow SOME of us to carry a gun as long as nobody can SEE it??

And WE buy into this and spend OUR money to satisfy THEM and then worry about whether anyone can tell?

Sounds like a plan to me.

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You have to be there when it's all over. Otherwise you can't say "I told you so."

Better days to be,

Ed
 
Does this mean a "bulge" of sorts is okay, but an outline could be a no-no?

Let's face it - a full sized 1911 in a waste band is hard to hide (particularly in hot weather) - add holster material ... it's harder to hide.

Around the country, what are your experiences - both personal and public?

[This message has been edited by andyb (edited August 10, 2000).]
 
An outline is printing and definitely a no-no. A bulge may or not be printing -- depends on where it is, the size of it and who sees it. Some LEOs will ignore a minor bulge since it could very well be something else while other LEOs will question it. Consequently, other LEOs will even let a big bulge slide. Like I said, a lot depends on who sees it where & when.

I think that you have less to worry about from the general public because another law-abiding gun owner/carrier is unlikely to say anything because he will more than likely identify with you and non-gun owners will not draw the conclusion that a bulge which doesn't look like a gun is a gun in most cases.
 
In Florida the standard is "concealed from ordinary view." Ordinary view is taken to mean that a disinterested observer cannot readily identify the object as a gun. A streetwise police officer scoping your fannypack hardly qualifies as a disinterested observer.

It sounds like the Virginia statute has a "hidden in plain sight" clause. As long as it doesn't LOOK like a gun you can have it in the open. Like one of those .22 pen guns. Only problem with that is then you get involved with ATF's "Any Other Weapon" status and the device becomes a Title II firearm.
 
Sure. Title II weapons include automatic weapons, short-barrelled rifles and shotguns, handguns with attachable rifle stocks, and a class known as "any other weapon." AOWs include short stocked (not short-barreled) rifles and shotguns as well as firearms that do not "look" like firearms. Examples include the pen guns I mentioned earlier as well as the holsters for the NAA mini revolvers that look like a wallet with a hole through the wallet for pulling the trigger.

The transfer tax for auto-guns, suppressors, and short-barrelled longarms is $200. The transfer tax for an AOW is $5. The same rules for AOW apply as for machineguns.

Anyway, if you have a firearm that is designed to look like something else it probably qualifies as an AOW and ATF will determine if it is subject to the transfer tax and registration. I remember seeing several years ago a knife smith who built knives with a single shot .22 in the knife blade. The top of the guard was the sight, the bottom was the trigger. That would be an excellent example of an AOW.
 
I'm not sure I understand the question here.

First, 18.2-308 doesn't ban any weapons, it just bans carrying them concealed.

Secondly, while it's prudent in the benighted northern regions of our commonwealth to keep one's pistol concealed, it isn't required by this section. Permit holder or no, one is entitled to walk around with a pistol so long as it is not hidden from common observation, so I can't see any legal repercussions resulting from printing etc., so long as one was in an area in which one was permitted to posess a handgun.

BTW, TBeck, the last sentence of subsection A states <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.[/quote] This isn't like Arizona, where a disguised gun was considered open carry.
 
TBeck - thanks for the info.
Cypselus - you are right about the "illegal" word; my apology for that one. Have you heard of any wording change in the permit itself - like replacing "handgun" with "weapon"?
 
The permit used to be for "weapons" including switchblades, daggers, etc., but since the 1995 reform, is only for handguns. They also slapped other silly restrictions on it, like the restaurant ban. I shouldn't complain too much, since I could never have gotten a CHL before without moving to Culpeper, but it's galling.
 
I wonder what would happen if you got a custom made pin to put on your coat that said "THIS BULGE IS NOT A GUN".
 
In my case, PF, it'd be a fib. I'm still working on the "svelte look" - no lumps ... well, none not already here ;). But I haven't yet found the secret.
 
FUD wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>An outline is printing and definitely a no-no. A bulge may or not be printing -- depends on where it is, the size of it and who sees it. Some LEOs will ignore a minor bulge since it could very well be something else while other LEOs will question it. Consequently, other LEOs will even let a big bulge slide. Like I said, a lot depends on who sees it where & when.
I think that you have less to worry about from the general public because another law-abiding gun owner/carrier is unlikely to say anything because he will more than likely identify with you and non-gun owners will not draw the conclusion that a bulge which doesn't look like a gun is a gun in most cases.[/quote]

I was once standing in a checkout line, and noticed the guy in front of me was wearing a black fanny pack. I looked closer, and lo and behold, the zipper had come slightly undone and guess what was peeking out? A small portion of the butt of a small frame revolver. I sidled up to the guy and whispered, "Check the zipper on your fannypack holster." He looked down, looked at me, smiled, and said, "Thanks," then zipped it closed. I've often wondered if anyone but someone who was fairly gun savy would even have been able to recogize what I saw as being a gun butt.
On the other hand, I've gotten many a silent chuckle being in the presence of people who claim, "I can always spot someone carrying a concealed weapon." "Do I look like I'm carrying a gun?" I ask. They look me over, then say, "Nah, you ain't armed." They stand there telling me this while failing to notice I'm carrying a Gov't Model .45, spare mag, and flashlight. :) :)

The "initiated" know, or can make a pretty accurate guess. The "uninitiated" wouldn't have a clue even if you dropped a 10 ton load of clues on 'em from the top of the Empire State Building.


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Shoot straight & make big holes, regards, Richard at The Shottist's Center
 
Does it depend on where the bulge in your pants is? :D

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

Actually, what would a print look like? Whenever I carry a full-size semi-auto in my pants, it leaves a bulge. *duh* At any rate, since its allways in-pants style only the handle is above the waist line. Being under a untucked shirt, you can sometimes tell that something is there.

Is it a cellphone? A pager? Go figure.

But I'll tell you something. EVERYTIME I see another guy out in public wearing a hip-pack (based on his over-all image); I always paint him as carrying concealed. Its usually pretty obvious.


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God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!
 
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