Primarily a Red Dot Question

S

Stainless44

Inactive
Good Afternoon,
As I am new to this forum, but not handloading, I have a couple of possibly strange question.
First a little background. Recently I went to a garage sale that advertised "reloading supplies". Turns out that a gunsmith had died of a heart attack and the widow wanted everything gone. In the back corner was his reloading stuff, consisting of several pounds of powder and brass. A box of shotgun shells was buried in the mix. In a fit of wonderlust, I purchased the whole bunch of stuff. Now I have everything to reload 12 ga. handgun and possibly rifle for the next 20 years.
Now to the questions:

1. Having read forum posts for the last 3 days, is there a definitive publication on identifying shotgun hulls? Not only do I have the ones from the sale, but I have picked up hundreds from the forest over the years.
2. I have seen a couple of recipes for Red Dot for 44 Mag, are there any for .40 S&W?
3. I saw in the "Lyman cast bullet handbook 3rd edition" that there are recipes for 30-06 that use Red Dot, but they are cast lead. Is there a way to convert that data to jacketed bullets?
4.Has anybody used Red Dot in either handgun or rifle and if so, what was your impression?

The reasons for the specific powder is that one of the canisters is 15 pounds of Red Dot and its the only one open, so I'd like to use it.
Sorry, it sounds like I'm rambling and this post is getting lengthy.

Thanks in advance for the help.
 
15 pound cannister of Red Dot? Sounds familiar. Two years ago I acquired one of those. Only way to use up that much powder was for me to take up trap shooting. Still working on that cannister, but my trap scores have improved. Great powder for low power handgun loads as well. Not so much for rifle loads unless you cast bullets and shoot low power loads. Hope that helps.

Don
 
Hulls

@FITASC
I would like to know how to identify them for reloading. I have a Lyman 4th edition with some good color pictures, but it's near impossible to ID what I have from that. I have seen postings that explain that some hulls are just renamed other hulls, but given the extremely tight tolerances of shotgun reloading, I want to be sure what I'm doing.
 
I picked up a 2/3 full 25lb keg of Red Dot in a garage sale deal, some decades ago. its still around half full or so.

I use Red Dot in .38 Special loads. 158gr cast at 850fps. Can't tell you the amount off the top of my head but its in several books.

I don't use it in anything else, as I have other powders that perform better.

Red Dot in a pistol round is for standard velocity loads, it doesn't deliver magnum levels it hits the pressure wall too soon for that.
 
As 44 AMP says, not for Magnum loads as it is a fast burning powder. But I have tested in .32 H&R Mag, .357 Mag, .44 Special, .44 Mag, and .45 Colt. Works well enough in all cases. For awhile Red Dot was my goto powder in .357 Mag (Nice 1000fps load under 158g SWC).
 
I use Red Dot for my 12 ga shotshell trap loads, also I reload all my handguns with Red Dot, it makes it much easier to have only a few powders on the shelf. While Red Dot may not be best for all calibers, it certainly works. I reload .38 special, 380 auto, 9mm, 32.20 , and .357 mag, all with Red Dot. You can also use Red Dot for .30 cal loads, ( look up the load from Ed Harris called the "Load" ) Try it, you'll be quite pleased.
 
@Chipperman, I'll get some pics as soon as I can, there are a lot of different kinds.
@44 AMP and rclark, I'm looking for a "download" for my 44. You only get hit in the face once or twice before you learn the loads are too hot.
@Average Joe, I've read on Ed's "the Load", but just wanted conformation that it can be loaded lighter.

Thanks for all the information so far.
 
 
I started using Red Dot when it was made by Hercules.

One reason I liked the their powder was because they gave a pistol load for most every powder and every bullet in a chart form.

Later it was found that much "cup" data was giving higher than expected pressures in psi when the loads were tested with newer/better measuring methods.

Here is a link to the old data. http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/reloaders-reference/powder-company-manuals/17-alliant-reloading-manuals/52-hercules-1987

Even though a lot of people loaded Red Dot to the max values in the chart for a long time, I do not recommend using the above anymore.

After Alliant took over, they put out a 1995 booklet with slightly reduced charges and pressure values in psi. There was no big change to the load data until after the 2000 booklet. I consider the 2000 data to be acceptable for use. It has both 40 S&W and 44 Mag on page 44 (pdf page 52). Remember to start low and work your way up.
http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/reloaders-reference/powder-company-manuals/17-alliant-reloading-manuals/56-alliant2000

Now Alliant data for Red Dot is not near as complete and they do not even list pressures.
 
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Ok, lets see if this worked
Click to expand...
Nope, all the links are not working on my end.

What is on the headstall and on the side of the hull? Sometimes we don't need pictures. But they help. There are instructions on how to load photos in one of the sticky threads. I will see if I can find it.
 
Of course, Red Dot is primarily a shotgun propellant. Used mostly for trap loads. I started loading in 1984; and at that time, I started loading 38 Special with it. Results were good. Very good. But it's really only good for lead target wadcutters. Not much else.

Back in '84, the range I frequented was often populated with old-timers and their S&W Model 15's (and older). It was uncanny how many of them basically had the same gun and was handloading the same ammo. Most all of them swore by Red Dot for target wadcutters. So that's what I got.

As time went on, I found myself using Bullseye more and more; and the reason why is lost to time. I don't recall.

But that's my experience with Red Dot. Haven't used it in decades; but I liked it when I did. Seems like it must be easy to produce because there's tons of it around - as I suppose you know now :p
 
The old Hercules powders, Red Dot, Green Dot, and Blue Dot were created for use in shotshells. Red Dot is the quickest of the 3, Blue Dot the slowest. Standard velocity loads in non magnum pistol cartridges are where Red Dot is useful. Green Dot can take you a little further up the velocity ladder, in some cases, and Blue Dot will produce lower end magnum level performance, HOWEVER some people report it is erratic in some cartridges, and therefore not suitable.
 
Stainless44 said:
@Chipperman, I'll get some pics as soon as I can, there are a lot of different kinds.
@44 AMP and rclark, I'm looking for a "download" for my 44. You only get hit in the face once or twice before you learn the loads are too hot.
@Average Joe, I've read on Ed's "the Load", but just wanted conformation that it can be loaded lighter.

Thanks for all the information so far.
Click to expand...
Average Joe, I've read on Ed's "the Load", but just wanted conformation that it can be loaded lighter.

I've gone as low as 10 grains in a .308 bolt action Remington 700 rifle, very very soft shooting, but it worked.
 
Stainless44-


As to hulls, there are two basic types: straight walled and tapered
The two best examples of tapered wall hulls are Remington - basically all of them, and Winchester AAs. European, Federal, cheap Winchester are straight-walled hulls. Euro hulls like Cheddite, RIO, etc use metric sized primers, so do not use Winchester, Federal or Remington 209s; you will want to use Euro primers. If you use Euro primers in US hulls, they tend to stretch the pockets enough that going back to US primers can lead to them falling out.
Wads to be used will be determined by type of hull and payload. Personally, I prefer to use the clone wads from ClayBuster or Downrange as opposed to the more expensive OEM wads from Remington and Winchester. Both Alliant and Hodgdon have reloading data on their website
 
"...convert that data to jacketed bullets..." Absolutely not.
Got any idea how the canister has been stored and for how long? Sealed it would probably be ok, but an open can, not necessarily. And there's no way to tell if it's ok but just looking or smelling it. Smell is usually more reliable though. As daft as that sounds.
Try rummaging around here for the shells ID. Dunno if they have a list of head stamps for shot shells or not. Wouldn't hurt to ask on the forum.
http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=reference
"..."cup" data was giving higher than expected pressures in psi..." The 2 cannot be converted mathematically. Cup and PSI are a different way of measuring pressure and have nothing whatever to do with each other.
 
It is commendable to pickup shells in the forest. But the correct place to put them is the nearest trash can. I am not in favor of trying to use crappy hulls to make good shotgun rounds. Quality tapered hulls like WWAA are plentiful and cheap if not free. They produce better shot shells, crimp well every time, and you only need one type wad. There is no "any hull" load data. Nothing to be gained. Claybusters makes economical replacement was that are interchangeable with the brands they replace.
 
Stainless44,

For your photos, go to your Google Photos, open each photo, right-click and select "Copy image location". In the post, click on the little postcard icon and paste the location into it and click "OK".

As to .44 Magnum, Alliant says you can load a 240 grain cast LSWC with up to 6.5 grains of Red Dot. That's a maximum. Start at about 5.5 grains. They use a CCI 300 primer.

For 30-06, with a 170-grain Lee Cast Bullet, 8 grains of Red Dot is a reasonable load. Don't go below 6.5 grains to stay well clear of getting below 20% case fill, where some unpleasant phenomena have been observed. Nor would I go over about 10 grains with a BHN 16 bullet, as it will start to distort under the pressure. Use any standard primer.
 
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