Prices up, quality down?

A

Ankeny

New member
Let me rant a minute. I know we like to keep things positive on TFL when possible and flame-throwers usually aren’t welcome. Well sometimes the world isn’t a bed of roses and things go wrong. I don’t want to open up a huge can of worms or spawn an overwhelming bitch session (excluding mine) but I just have to know how many of you guys feel quality control of firearms has gone downhill in recent years along with customer support. It seems to me that we are paying some pretty high prices for some pretty shoddy craftsmanship. Let me give you my two most recent examples.

I bought a Kimber Stainless Gold Match in September and it has been back to the custom shop twice on warranty. I sent the pistol in (actually Kimber sent a call tag) on Novemeber 18th. That’s almost six weeks ago. Still no word on the status of the pistol other than they promised to have it back before Christmas. I try not to think about it because I get a headache when I do. Counting taxes, shipping, etc, I have over $1300.00 invested and I haven’t had it in my possession for more than a couple of weeks in the past three months. That just isn’t right is it?

Last week I bought a new Remington 700 Varmint Rifle in .22-250. I put a new 6-18 power Leupold scope on it and started working up loads. Counting the scope, rifle, base, rings, etc., I have over a thousand bucks in the rifle. The darn thing started to string shots horizontally. I then noticed there is an 1/8 inch or more gap between the barrel and the stock on the right side and the stock contacts the barrel on the left side. The stock is an HS Precision stock with the aluminum-bedding block. I went back to the dealer and he agreed the problem is pretty darned obvious. Called Remington today, twice. They will replace the stock, but I have to send the firearm back, at my expense. The anticipated turn around is four to six weeks excluding shipping time. By then the winter “turkey” shoots will be over and the predator hunting will be about done. What a bummer. I called back to Remington and pleaded for them to send me a stock. No can do, not even if I give them my credit card number to insure I don’t rip them off. I was told even if the problem is obvious "it isn’t a problem until Remington says it is a problem". To add insult to injury, the guy at Remington went so far as to tell me the stock is a $350.00 part. I can buy one from H&S direct for less money. I suppose I would have been better off to buy a barreled action and get a stock from old what’s his name. Good grief.

So, what do you guys think? Has customer service and quality control gone by the wayside or am I just too darn finicky?
 
I'm not sure if quality has gone down hill butcustomer service seems lacking in MANY businesses. I sometimes wonder if the slow turn-around is due to liablity issues as well... when I have a problem I'd rather take it to my local smith and let him turnm it around in a few days, rather than let the factory guys keep it for months.

But when you get a lemon from the factory.. well NOBODY seems to want to help. I've never had to send one back yet but a close friend had a HELL of a time with a savage pump shotgun (he should have seen a gunsmith first).

On the plus side I had a broken part on my lil marlin 995 and the ladyu i spoke to on the phone was MOST helpful. I described the problem and she sent me the part FOR FREE.

Nice to see that some of the factory reps are still in the business of good customer service.

Dr.Rob
 
Got a hold of a gunsmith who is only 200 miles away. Just down the road by Wyoming standards. He is also an authorized repair center. He has the stock "hanging on the wall" and he will replace my stock and return the same day. Heck, if I want to drive over (and I think I will) he will swap it out on the spot, no questions asked.

He also told me that it is just about impossible for the "guy on the street" to do business with Remington direct. The long turn around time is due in part to liability issues. He was very suprised that Remington did not refer me to him, but he blames that on the Christmas rush.

Anyway, he told me Remington has a policy that the customer is always right and they are a great company to work with as long as the work is performed by the repair center. He kind of chuckled at the notion that they will bend over backwards to make things right as long as they don't actually do the work and assume the liability themselves.

A big thumb's up for Jackalope Gunshop in Douglas, a big thumb's down for the guys at Remington.
 
This one is true & also truely disgusting
and thensome & a good deal more. I'm totally po'ed about what happened & it was not even my gun; I can hardly imagine how the gun owner must have felt!

He had bought a brand new Dan Wesson
445 Supermag with a 8&3/8 stainless ported barrel that was fubared by the factory during
manufacture.

It shot the screw in end cap of the
muzzle break clear off the gun,the ports
were totally clogged with lead and the barrel nut (Dan Wessons have screw off barrels for
60 second interchange) which holds the barrel on under tension, was frozen on with the threads jammed with lead.

We sent the gun to Dan Wesson at the owners expense as well as a check for 20.oo
to cover the return shipping. Dan Wesson had no trouble cashing the check immediately;
but the gun remained up at Dan Wesson for 11
months. It seemed there were no screw in replacement barrels available.
Bear in mind that DW barrel change is normally a 60 second job. 3 Minutes if you are a total retard.

The 445 supermag was still up at Dan Wesson 3 months later, a total of 14 months, still with out having any work done to it, when Dan Wesson went bankrupt and the customer(gun owner) recieved a letter from the bankruptcy recievership lawyer saying that if he wanted his gun returned ,unrepaired and still broken,
he would have to pay an additional 45.oo
for return shipping. This request after already prepaying 20.oo return shipping to Dan Wesson. So, it cost him 20.oo to ship to Wesson,20.oo prepaid return shipping and an additional 45.oo return shipping & handling;
and no repairs whatsoever were done to the gun. $85.oo bucks down the crapper.


He could have bought a new replacement barrel outright for $120.oo and it would only
have been 35.oo more that what wesson did to him. As it was ,it cost him $85.00 for wesson
and $120.oo for the new replacement barrel from the distributor; at total of $205.oo
and 15 months of waiting.

I truely feel sorry for him!

AIN'T THAT THE DIRTY END OF THE STICK WITH SPIKES IN IT!

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Every year,over 2 million Americans use firearms
to preserve life,limb & family.Gun Control Democrats
would prefer that they all die,instead.
ernest2, Conn. CAN opp. "Do What You Can"! http://thematrix.acmecity.com/digital/237/cansite/can.html


[This message has been edited by ernest2 (edited December 29, 1999).]
 
Ankenny
Anything that I have purchased new recently I believe has been of good quality. I have not been able to get some of my new stuff to the range yet,but as far as look,fit and function it's class stuff. Now some of the used surplus stuff such as my CZ 50 and 70 pistols that's another story, They seem to be of good quality but they were used and I knew that when I purchased them.
As far as customer service I recently called Beretta for some replacement screws and washers for my Cougar, No problem the person on the other end could not have been more helpful. The only thing I did not recieve from that order was the spare factory mag I ordered and that was back ordered. Sometime after the New Year I will give them a call to see where it is.
I have really had nothing that has given me any real serious problems

Happy New Year to One and All :)

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Help Stamp Out Gun Ignorance.
 
Ankeny: To a certain extent, production costs have risen more than factories feel "the traffic will bear". So, generally, the fit and finish on many mass-produced guns is less than "the good old days". Not all, of course.

I agree with those who feel that, overall, the quality of service is down. The "Customer relations" part is gone to garbage for many companies. Not as policy, so much, as the quality of the help. Again, a generalization; those companies who really work at pleasing the customer seem to stay in business longer...

I guess that's why I stay with my "Old Pets", or refurbish older guns. If nothing else, the wood is a helluva lot better, from "way back when".

FWIW, Art
 
I said this on another forum and it applies as written only to one kind of gun, but...

In a day when products made to dimensions in micro-meters are common, when this computer's hard drive has a MTBF rate that is astronomical, what is so hard about making a Model 1911 clone that works? Weird ammunition aside, this is an 89 year old design. Eighty-nine years, folks! How many mysteries can there be about a relatively crude piece of ironmongery with an 89-year old design? This gun was born in a day when cars were a novelty; when airplanes were a rumor; when a computer was a person with a mathematical bent; when cry cleaning was still in the future; when men wore derby hats and women wore long dresses and big hats. This is from the days of button hooks and bustles, of hansom cabs and high top shoes. And we can't duplicate it today without screwing it up? I am confused. Can someone enlighten me?

Jim
 
Jim, I think it's because there's no room for real craftsmanship in This Modrun World. I mean, jeez, even the *buildings* now are pre-fab and not meant to last more than a few years. Actual skills and trades are sneered at as unintellectual and low-class. Look at the guys who make really good stuff, whether it be guns, furniture, cars, etc: ain't a one of 'em under 50. As they die out, they're not being replaced.

Yeah, I'm one to talk, being 30 and a computer geek. :(

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"The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it."
-- John Hay, 1872
 
Drove to the authorized repair center today. The stock ain't the problem. Turns out the stock bolt holes in the receiver are drilled off center and one of them is crooked. When the stock bolts are tightened the action is being twisted and pulls the barrel to one side.

Kind of amusing in a way. I mean, here we have a CNC machine used on a precision bedding block, then some knot head with a dull center punch and the shakes drills the freaking holes wherever....my head hurts.
 
As you already know, that's very bad news. When you first reported the problem, I was thinking, ok, the stock got warped somehow after shipping. But this is simply a complete lack of final inspection. From a company like Remington, this is just plain bad. This makes me glad I have decided to get a Savage instead of a 700 VS, not to mention the fact that Rem. discontinued the VS anyway.
 
Jim Keenan, LOL, excuse me I gotta go feed my horse! It's a little dark in here, better light a kerosene lamp. Ah, that's better!
I'm looking in my crystal ball, it's becoming clearer, yes, I see something! I see your answer! It's a horse... he's rearing in the air... there are some letters, too. C....O....L....T.... The horse is saying something. What? "What do you think they named the ammunition after: 45 ACP" Now the letters are coming back C....O....L....T....!

LOL, Happy new year to all curmudgeons on TFL! :)

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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1785
We don't have a chaplain here, but I don't view that as any major problem... You can rest assured
that you will not go in that bag until I've said a few appropriate words over you
R. Lee Ermy as Sgt Major Haffner, from The Siege of Firebase Gloria
If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts. It may not kill him... sometimes they die slow, but it'll paralyze his brain and arm and the fight is all but over Wild Bill Hickok
 
Ankeny, did you get your Remington fixed? Inquiring minds want to know! :)

------------------
Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson
If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts, it may not kill him... sometimes they die slow, but it'll paralyze his brain and arm and the fight is all but over Wild Bill Hickok
Remember: When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up.
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
 
A guy I worked with bought a Rem 700 in 22-250 just prior to deer season and it did the same thing. They shipped it off ( at dealer expense ) and Rem sent it back and said there wasn't anything wrong with it, so he went to the range, and it wasn't fixed. Also somthing was wrong with the bolt, so they sent it back and Rem. finally said there was a problem, and just sent him a certificate for a new rifle. He got a .243 and it works just fine. I was thinking that this type of stuff must be kinda odd since I've never heard of a factory rifle being a lemon, but now I've heard it twice. Most of my firearms are older, and they function great. Even the old mausers, and shotguns ect. work like new. I'd sure love to see them take pride in their work again like they used to. Now I scour gunshows, and garage sales looking for older firearms and I have pretty good success at it.
 
The distributor had a salesman look at the rifle. They refunded the dealer's money the on the spot.

The dealer told me I could have my money back or the full purchase price including taxes applied to another firearm purchase. These guys are great. The distributor is Go in Montana and the dealer is Rocky Mountain Sports with stores in Cody and Riverton, Wyoming. Sorry for the plug, but they earned it.

I opted to have the dealer obtain another 700 VS from the same distributor. Afterall, with service like that I feel compelled to stick with the original deal and continue doing my business with them. Besides, lightening never strikes the same place twice does it?

By the way, after 12 weeks of waiting I should get my Lemon Kimber Stainless Gold Match back this week. Of course, had I bought the Kimber from the local dealer, he would have replaced the thing or refunded my money two months ago.

I must be charmed. What's the odds of buying two defective firearms three months apart? Hey, maybe lightening can strike twice, but three times...never.
 
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