Pre 64 1894 Winchester

C

cliffgeo

Inactive
Hi all,

I would greatly appreciate any help with this gun you are able to provide. It is a pre-64 1894 Winchester 30 WCF. My boss asked me to try and sell it for him as he has kids AND a wife that is scared of firearms. He inherited it after his dad passed and was told it was a gift to someone in his distant family from the Queen of England??? It has been stored in a glass-front presentation box. No provenance to support, but interesting none the less. It is in pretty good shape with a couple of rust spots on top right side of receiver and forearm band. It has a side mount scope that reads -JW Sidle Phila PA- 2106. It has an ivory front site bead and serial 918xx. Web serial search says 1897 - Considering it's age and condition vs. other similar 94's I am guessing it is worth more than the $450 offered from the local gun shop. I would appreciate any help/value estimates/info I can get to sell it for a fair price and help out my boss. Thank you very much in advance!
 

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Don't give it away. If the scope is clear and in working order it's worth more than that by itself.
 
The gun unfortunately has been drilled on the left side for the rear scope mount. The screws in the mount are not in holes that were placed by the factory. It also appears that the stock may have been refinished and the steel butt plate has been replaced, judging by the pics. Also it looks as if the front scope mount took some gunsmithing to put on. If the barrel is altered, or if the front scope mount is welded to the barrel, that will lower the value. All of these modifications drastically reduce the rifle's value. This is a real shame because early 1894s are worth a premium esp in this gun's condition. The scope may be worth more than the gun. The gun is worth more than $450, without the scope, for parts alone but not a whole lot more. Perhaps $600 to $800 for the rifle and the scope? Who knows. You need to find out who made the scope and do some research. Perhaps sell them separately because the scope is probably pretty valuable, perhaps $1000+.
 
Good stuff, I appreciate the info! It really is a nice gun, and for its age is in good shape. Too bad about the mods, but sounds like we could probably get more than expected. Again, thanks...
 
Personally I don't think the wood has been refinished just not used much. Is hard to tell from pics but looks like front mount has a clamp around barrel with set screw.
 
The buttstock appears to be a replacement. This is a carbine of early age and should only have been made with a curved steel carbine buttplate. Since the buttstock is flat at the butt then it would be a replacement. Some may make the case that Winchester could have installed the shotgun butt as a factory option. However there are so few comfired one option guns that unless 3 options are evident on any rifle it is believed by myself and other Winchester researcher that anything less was most likely added after it left the factory. I cant imagine someone going to the trouble to order and wait for a one option rifle.
 
Well, I am no Winchester collector, but I see three factory options on that rifle:
1- Express sight
2- Color case hardened lever
3- Shotgun butt

Even if the wood has been replaced, the metal has not been refinished and looks to be in outstanding condition, which would lead me to believe that the wood is original. Several thousand for the package as is. Remove the scope and sell it separately and you wioll lower the overall value of the package because then you will have no scope, and a drilled and tapped 1894.
 
I believe the levers on early 1894's were color case hardended as standard, or at least common, same for early hammers. The butt looks good. The sight was a fairly common option. Without a letter from the museum in Cody (bbhc.org), it's hard to tell the original configuration. The condition is much above average for the age. Even with the scope, which may have been a factory option, it's an interesting gun. I'd guess your looking at more like $1200 to possibly much more, depending on what a factory letter say. If the scope and everything else are original, it could go several times that amount.

The color case hardening is in very good condition. Most colors fade in time. Light causes it to fade.

Much of the commonly available date information can be up to 3 or 4 years off, particularly the earliest guns in the 1894 series. Most of the incorrect dates are in reality later guns than the common info suggests. A letter from Cody will give the correct date.


BTW, it is a "pre-64", but that term is generally used for guns from WWII to 64. Most collectors would call it a pre-war, or simply a very early gun. "Pre-64" guns are nowhere near as interesting as your example.

As for the small rust spots, just oil them and don't try to "clean" them. Let someone that's good with antique guns deal with it, or the next owner. You have an unusual gun, wether it's all factory or not, it's unsusual and somewhat valuable in its presnt condition. Don't rush into selling it. There's a Winchester antique gun show coming up in Cody next weekend. I may show pics of it to some guys and see if they have any input.
 
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Thanks Malamute - That would be great. I would be happy to provide additional photos if that would help. I gave the gun a thin coating of Breakfree, but that's it. The bore is nice and except for the small rust spots and some light horizontal scratches on the receiver, I assume are from a scabbard, the gun is in incredible condition. It will be sold, but not in a big rush.
Thank you to all who assisted me here!
 
The "scratches" are pretty common, even on guns that have never been out having fun. They are reputed to be carbon or another element in the metal having oxidized away. The forging process did something to the surface of the metal that effected the metal surface. I've seen Winchesters in the Cody Museum that had likely never been outside of a building, in otherwise 100% condition have those marks. The blue on the recievers ages differently than most of the rest of the gun also. It flakes. Not much you can do about it, just a fact of life with old Winchesters.

I'll send you a PM with my e-mail address, and perhaps you can send me a few pics, with closeups of the front scope mount also. If you send them as standard jpeg pics, in full pixel count (don't choose to reduce the pixel count to e-mail), they should be good for our purposes.
 
After seeing the later photo it does look to be an original Winchester buttplate, from the side it looks odd and sun bleached. This is one option if original, the express sights while common on rifles are less common on carbines so at least 2 options make this more interesting.
 
I agree, the buttplate pic helps with it looking factory. The wood looks very good, and matches the fore end pretty well as to wood and finish. I also agree there werent many early carbines with shotgun butts, but, Winchester would build you about anything you asked for, so it's tough to say for sure without a letter. Madis also points out that some special order items weren't noted on the paperwork. All of this keeps the Winchester field interesting, if difficult at times.

Looking through Madis' book makes me scratch my head at times, seeing what folks would special order. :D
 
I have studied 94's for many years and a special order carbine is quite unusual as most were rifles that were optioned. If this can be documented then it is indeed a great find.
 
Am I wrong when I say it has extra holes or that they significantly decrease the value of this gun? No one seems to see what I'm talking about !?!?!
 
WINCHESTER 73, a few have mentioned the extra holes. There is no crime worse against a gun than have extra holes drilled. The next great distractor is rebluing and refinishing. These act do indeed decrease drastically the value of any antique gun.
 
Am I wrong when I say it has extra holes or that they significantly decrease the value of this gun? No one seems to see what I'm talking about !?!?!
Click to expand...

IF was done at factory and can be proven it will add value to gun if sold with scope attached.
 
"Am I wrong when I say it has extra holes or that they significantly decrease the value of this gun? No one seems to see what I'm talking about !?!?!"


Yes, but we're not talking a post war 94 and a weaver side mount either. The gun may or may not have come from the factory with the scope, if it did, it adds to the value, if not, it may decrease the value of the gun alone from what it may have been for similar condition without the scope, but the scope is old and has some value of it's own. Like a Sharps rifle that had a period scope mounted on it, no, it wasnt factory, but its old, unusual, and interesting in it's own right. In some circumstances it may even add to the value.

In any event, this is not a $250 gun because it has a scope mounted on it. The condition alone, with it's age, even scoped, is likely more valuable than a post war 94 in average decent shape that's untouched.

I'm not familiar with old scopes, but it's possible the scope may be worth more than the gun. Together, it may be a better value than either alone. That is just one of the unanswered questions.

I'm having someone check the number of the gun to see if it had any special features.
 
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