Practice techniques

M

mpawul

Inactive
I'm new to the forum and relatively new to handguns.
I realize a practice session will never simulate a real life situation. I also know that if I do ever have to shoot to kill the probability is that the perp will be "close enough so I can smell him". I'm curious on some of pratice techniques some of you use at the range to try and simulate a real life combat senario, if that's possible.
Typically, indoors, I pratice a double-tap to the chest and releasing the recoil for a third shot to the head. Outside, I try and move laterally (slowly) and hit my target. Hope these are not stupid questions for the more experienced.

Mike
 
mpawul: You may want to consider sending that third round into the pelvic bone instead of a "head shot". The head tends to be a pretty difficult little target to hit and a good solid pelvic bone hit will knock your assailant down. Movement is GOOD! These little soical encounters tend to be very dynamic anyway, and moving to cover or even merely moving out of the initial sight picture of your assailant is a good thing. Remember to think "liability" every time a round goes astray. Get yourself some expert training. Here locally I highly recommend the Firearms Acadamy of Seattle located down in Chehalis. They are on the web at www.firearmsacademy.com. Stay safe.

[This message has been edited by nwgunman (edited February 17, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by nwgunman (edited February 17, 2000).]
 
Double tap? Since where is there a limit? Try CAPACITY TAP. Shoot until the threat is GONE. Also the concept of a pause is nonsense on its face. You won't pause. And if you did you will be in the same position as the cops in the NYPD Diallo case. A major factor was a pause after a first few shots. If a witness hears that pause there is the assumption by prosecution that the threat was over. It sure showed up in the Diallo case. I have some transcripts if you want of that and I may have posted it here someplace on TFL if you look.
Trying to hit a target in the head at such close range (the closer you are the higher the miss rate) is all but impossible and unrealistic.
As for moving, you won't move an inch. It will be over far to fast for that. It is a theory that "sounds good." In a few rare cases where videos showing a shooter "move" they RAN like hell the other way. Unless you get good at shooter OVER your shoulder stick to and MASTER more realistic concepts.
21 feet or LESS, low light and darkness. Few understand that the closer the threat the higher your miss rate. Most shooters get into the movie like concepts which isn't very realistic. We've had shooters frequently miss at 7 or 8 feet because you lose all eye hand coordination because you can't shoot the gun extended. And that is without an concerns for their safety. Hope that helps.

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Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.
 
I agree, Pluspinc. But then why is there still any controversy about point shooting? I know damned well that is what I would end up doing, no matter what I'd practiced; everything the least bit complex would just evaporate in a cloud of fear and adrenaline. The point-shooting vs. aimed fire tests I've seen in magazines never seem to involve any even mildly semi-realistic stress, so I don't think they have any validity at all. We did a thing at the range once where when you turned around, the target was running up the line toward you from maybe 15 feet away; you had to pick up your gun and get him before he got to you. I don't think anybody got two hands on the gun, it was point shooting all the way. No time to find a two-handed grip or acquire the sights, just shove it out there and fire away until the gun's empty. See your sights? You barely see your gun, just the thing coming at you. Bullets ended up in the ceiling, and this silhouette wasn't shooting back! Self-defense practice should reflect reality, and don't we know enough about what reality is likely to be in a close-quarters gunfight to pretty much forget about niceties like two handed grips, sight pictures, etc.? (I don't know how you produce realistic stress in a training simulation; maybe wire up the shooter so if he fails to get the perp in the allowed time, he gets a brutally stiff shock to somewhere tender. Ouch! I bet you wouldn't see a two-handed grip all day.)
Byron
 
we shoot at an outdoor range where we can set up shooting problems. the best involve starting from a sitting or in a car posistion. you get up or out and begin to to engage targets. the targets are in groups or singles. not all targets are shooters. you see we put faces on the targets and some of them are "good guys". easy so far right? all targets are shot while moving! advancing forward, moving lateral, backing up. the only time you can stop is when you reach cover. all reloads are to be done from cover. we set the course for each other so we never know whats coming up. great fun
we also have a large creek bottom basin that is private property. we have a trail on it and we have set up handgun and archery targets at various locations at several distances from the trail (all with good backstops). we fast jog the trail and stop at a target. one is the shooter one holds the stop watch or timer. you must draw, shoot and reload. if you do not shoot with in 3 seconds of stopping the jog you are declared dead. distances between targets is long and your heart is pumping when you get there. cheap adrenaline training.
we also do the 100 yard dash shoot. on a 100 yard rifle range (private) we start at a signal and run as fast as we can to within 7 yards of the target/targets. when you reach the firing line you stop and shoot ASAP. sounds easy huh. try it. little tip don't try to steady your aim most people's hearts are pounding so hard that you just shoot when the sights cross the kill zone. plus the fast draw practice is harder for you under pressure. enjoy

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one.--And they said. Lord here are two swords. And he said unto them. That is not enough. Luke 22-36,38
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
 
mpawul,
First off, expunge that "shoot to kill" notion from your mind. We shoot to "STOP". The distinction is not a minor one.

A pair of shots to the center of mass is a good plan "A". If this doesn't work, then it is ridiculous to just continue plan "A" with additional rounds (continuing to pursue a failed plan with increased effort and fervor is a characteristic of liberal politicians...don't emulate them). Instead, go to plan "B" for subsequent shots. Plan "B" may be the head or the pelvis or whatever you can SEE to shoot. The main thing is that it is DIFFERENT than the failed plan "A".

Now some folks are sure to go "har, har...you won't have no time to be thinkin' of plans" and similar criticisms. Don't let them define what you can and can't do. I'm sure that you've had another car stop abruptly in front of you. I'm sure that you've gotten onto the brakes (plan A) and then figured out that you won't have room to stop. You probably got off the brakes and steered around the stopped car (plan B)...all in a fraction of a second and without conscious deliberation.

Noting that you are practicing "double taps" really tells me little about what you're doing, other than firing two shots. There are two basic ways in which to deliver two shots. The "hammer" and the "controlled pair". The hammer is a close-range technique wherein a flash sight picture is only acquired for the first shot. The second shot is fired upon recovery from recoil and, with practice, will impact very near the first. (sight-fire-recover-fire). The controlled pair differs in that the sight picture is acquired for both shots (sight-fire-recover-sight-fire). Controlled pairs can be delivered at any distance at which you can hit. The interval between the two shots will vary depending on the degree of markmanship difficulty presented. Know how to use both techniques.

Movement while shooting is a valuable skill. Regardless of the naysayers, it happens frequently (and many people would have been better off had they been able to shoot on the move). Billy "the kid's" escape from the burning McSween house during the Lincoln County "war" is just one of many examples.

Get some good training, so that you have the fundamentals correct. Practicing bad technique will only ingrain habits that'll be hard to break later.

Rosco
 
In suprise situations the adrenaline hits the roof and your gross motor skills fly out the window. At close ranges in these situations point shooting is typically the reality- you cannot extend your arms into a weaver stance if you wanted to because the BG is there.

The situation changes somewhat when the threat is known. For instance, if you know the BG is in your house and you know he must come through a certain door, i.e. the bedroom door, you have an opportunity to "make ready." The situation is still very stressful. Your adrenaline has probably already dumped, and definitly will if the BG enters the room you are in. But you can reasonably expect to hold a weaver an fire with acceptable accuracy. Of course every situation and everyone's different. But if you have done your part preparing through training and practice, all you've learned should not leave you in your time of need.

Erik
 
oh yeah her's a good one that you should start with paintball guns or pellet pistols first.
put a combat target on a duffel bag full of sawdust or some filler hanging from a tree or frame and stand with your back to it but an arms length or less from it. at a signal back up and turn toward the target. with one hand or elbow push the bag away from you while drawing your handgun. when gun is clear of your body and aligned with target fire from speed rock or similar posistion.
WARNING THIS EXERCISE CAN BE DANGEROUS! BE SURE YOU ARE CLEAR OF YOUR OWN BODY BEFORE FIRING ANY PISTOL EVEN PAINT GUNS AND PELLET PISTOLS CAN INJURE AT CLOSE RANGE.
I think you will be supprised how hard it is to hit a target that close when you are having to hold it off of you (ala close contact fight). much much harder than it is to lineup and shoot ar 7 yards.
 
Welcome to the forum, mpawul. I have to second the comment about "shoot to kill". Actually, you should probably eliminate the word "kill" from your vocabulary. However, whenever, and wherever you use that word, it has a way of coming back to haunt you.

The only "stupid questions" are the ones that go unasked. On the rare occasion that a question on TFL is ridiculed, it's usually obvious who the fool is (not the asker).

Sounds like you already have a pretty good idea of what you need to learn/practice. Movement is a VERY good thing. When "dry practicing" inside the home, a "reduced size" target is helpful in simulating longer distance, and the increased motor skills needed for sight alignment and trigger control.

After safely stowing ALL available ammunition, I have my wife go through the house and place the "bad guys" in various locations. House clearing is VERY risky business, often refered to as "hunting for someone to kill you". Wifey's pretty good at throwing me curves on the setup, one time I got all the way through to the last room without encountering ANY BGs. I'm thinking: "Geeze, they're ALL gonna be in THIS room, get ready for "rapid target transition". Swung the door open, ducked low behind the doorjam. Slowly, cautiously, cleared the whole room, NO BGs!! Wifey's behind me, snickering. "WHERE THE HELL ARE THEY???!!!" She's LHAO now, "I stashed'em in the trunk of the car". :mad:

Best peice of advise I can offer: Plusp is somewhat of a troll here, he'll jump on ANY opportunity to "put down" ANY type of training/preparement. He has NO respect for ANY method of self defence, he just rambles on about "statistics". His statistics ARE NOT going to save your hide, only preparedness on your part will do that.
 
Recommend joining your local IPSC/USPSA/IDPA club and put in some time getting REAL familiar handling your gun(s).

If you can afford it check out GunSite/LFI/FrontSite/Thunder Ranch.

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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
 
Pluspinc--I REALLY LIKE that " CAPACITY TAP " statement! I can't wait to use that one on the next CCP class...we always say things like "shoot to neutralize the threat"
 
None taken (lazy bastard that I am, I didn't take the time to get the Correct Spelling!)

Thanks for straightening me out, as I wouldn't want anyone to miss an opportunity to go there because they couldn't find it due to my poor spelling.

LOL
 
"Capacity tap" may be a cute or glib term, but if it means just dumping shot after shot into the center-of-mass when the previous hits have had no effect, it is not a good idea. If "plan A" doesn't work, then one had best get on to "plan B". We can argue about what "plan B" ought to be (head shot, pelvic shot, run away, whatever), but the primary thing is that it ought be DIFFERENT than the failed "plan A".

The "capacity tap" is also not going to be real helpful if the bad guy brought friends. There's much to be said for "boarding house rules" in multiple target situations...that is, "everyone gets FIRSTS before anyone gets SECONDS" (see I can be cute and glib too).

Rosco
 
One fellow mentioned being in a car, but got out before he started the fun. The BG may not politely stand aside and let you get out. Now, many, including me, like a right side high rise holster. Great on the range, but under a coat, and in a car, and with a seat belt, I don't think I can do that "1.5 second draw and fire two shots" that was the theme of one thread.

The best idea may be to change holsters, but any others? Taking the gun out and laying it on the seat in the open is not a great idea, even if legal. Covering it with a piece of newspaper will work, but in any case involves a (visible) transfer everytime one enters and exits the car.

Or just post a notice on the car window not to disturb the occupant until he can get his gun out.

Jim
 
Welcome mpawul! You ever see the movie where the coach scream "fundimentals!" Ok, you get the idea. When you feel reasonably impressed with your static shooting skill level (I mean relax, take an aimed shot, and place it in the bullseye at a good yardage) then begin to practice moving & point shooting. Your success will come suprisingly faster. You will impress no one and embarass yourself if you can move with cat like quickness, leap with ninja flair, draw your pistol like Eastwood......and then not hit anything. Good schooling is available you may just have to look for it. Best of luck to you.
 
A rough but effective divisiob of practice shooting is:

Two handed sighted fire
Break that down as 50 % 7 to 15 yards
20% 15 to 30 yards

one target and two targets
10%

one target abd two targets

Close quarter shooting 5 to 20 feet; 10%

If your range allows it spend thr rest of your time on pivoting 90 degrees and 180 degrees to engae targets and don't forget to practice rapid reloading while you do all this. Good Luck!
 
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